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Where you have a problem Son is that you are introducing stuff that isn't specifically taught.
I suggested a place to begin. If you are interested in where the rapture is seen taught. I didn't see yet your position on these beginnings.
In Genesis Enoch surrounded by contemporaries who were dying typical deaths, suddenly was not found. God took him. But he took him because he "walked with God".
A hint is that he "walked with God" because he knew that divine judgment was coming on the whole world. "It is time for me to learn to walk with GOD because GOD is about to judge the earth."
He had a son called Methuselah whose name can be translated "when he dies it will come". Enoch named his son "when he dies it will come" to warn the world of coming divine judgment. And then for three hundred some years he prepared by walking with God.
His being translated may not have been his intention. Nevertheless it was the result of his vigilant walk with God. God removed Enoch. And with great patience waited with mercy for the longest living man to die - Methuselah whose extra long life of nine hundred and sixty-nine years (Gen. 5:27), shows God's reluctance to judge - giving the world time to repent.
God being longsuffering wanting all men to come to repentance and be sparred His judgment. But he will not postpone forever. When Methuselah died world wide judgment came down upon the earth though Noah and seven others plus the preserved animals were saved.
The main point here not to be distracted from is the seeds of rapture truth, are seen in the life of Enoch. Further development of rapture truth appears further along in the Bible.
Do you see ground for its beginnings of revelation in the life of Enoch?
12 Sep 21
@ghost-of-a-duke saidIndeed. Persecution and tribulation is part and parcel of the life of the Christian that follows Christ. But, there comes a time, when everything is going to be destroyed, and the righteous will be removed from the earth [Christians call it raptured] and the wicked will be destroyed along with everything else. I can quote at least 5 bible passages where this event is described.
I agree that any notion of God’s people being raptured away from Earthly persecutions is non-biblical. (Jesus even called it a blessing - Matt. 5:10).
'Blessed are those who have been persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven.'
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.and of course Psalm 37:11 "But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace."
The (scriptural) destiny of mankind is the earth, that is where he was built and designed to be.
I am attempting to get you to agree that Enoch was taken by God off of the earth. But this is not to be misunderstood. The testimony of a man being so rescued was FOR the eventual goal of gaining the earth. It was not that God would give up any of His original mandate.
Therefore I am not defending any concept of God removing saints from the earth as God relinquishing His eternal purpose that man be deputy authority with God over the earth.
"The kingdom of the heavens" in Matthew is the kingdom the SOURCE of which is in heaven. It is not the kingdom which is ONLY in heaven.
The rapture of Enoch is a testimony that a man living on the earth is nonetheless governed by the God of Heaven. The man living in the midst of a crooked and corrupted generation is living under the administration whose origin is not on earth but in heaven. This is how Enoch walked with God.
Enoch obtained a certain testimony - "By faith Enoch was translated so that he should not see death; and he was not found, because God took him.
For before his translation he obtained the testimony that he had been well pleasing to God.
And without faith it is impossible to be well pleasing to Him, for he who comes forward to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him." (Heb. 11:5,6)
@sonship saidMore nonsense and false information, the reason why nobody trusts what you say.
He had a son called Methuselah whose name can be translated "when he dies it will come". Enoch named his son "when he dies it will come" to warn the world of coming divine judgment. And then for three hundred some years he prepared by walking with God.
Methuselah according the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia,is a Hebrew name meaning 'man of the javelin', NOT "when he dies it will come"
Why are you harassing medullah to respond to your posts. Your posts are utter nonsense and unbiblical. The polite people will just ignore you. I take you on because you are misleading people and I dont care to be polite.
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The prayer of the saints is God's kingdom would come - "Your kingdom come" rather than we go to Your kingdom. And the prayer is God's will would be done on earth as it is in heaven.
So rapture taught as an ultimate escape and relinquishing the earth to Satan is NOT the rapture that I am defending.
I would suggest that you read Revelation 12 and master all the details of every single sentence, for me to be able to continue developing this view of rapture.
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Medullah,
"But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace."
Rapture is taught in the Bible precisely in this light. But it has not been handled by some popularizers in this light.
For example, the ones TAKEN in rapture in Luke 17:34 - 37 are taken to FIGHT. They are rewarded by being qualified to FIGHT with Christ at the battle of Armageddon against Antichrist. Here is the proof:
"I tell you, in that night there will be two on one bed, the one is taken and the other will be left. There will be two women grinding together; the one will be taken but the other will be left. Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other will be left.
And they answered and sad to Him, Where, Lord? And He said to them, Where the body is, there also will the vultures be gathered together." (Luke 17:34-37)
To the question of WHERE these ones are taken, the Lord Jesus does not here say, "They are taken to escape forever in Heaven". Though it is true that rapture is an escape it is not the END of the matter of rapture.
Rather they are likened to birds of prey ready to devour a corpse. I agree with the interpretation that the corpse is history's thoroughly dead one, the Antichrist, the final truly consummate representative of fallen and deadened humanity. And he will be like a stinking corpse and victim of God's army of predatory "birds" swooping down upon him as it shows in Revelation 19.
Antichrist will be crushed by Christ and His overcomers for the gaining of the earth for God's kingdom. And selective rapture of the one from the other in the bed, or at the grinding mill, or in the field is the gathering of Christ's army of faithful and vigilant believers who will be rewarded to accompany Jesus Christ coming down to wrest the earth from Antichrist, crush him and his armies, and establish Christ's millennial kingdom upon the planet.
Can you see by this that they are raptured in a militant sense, in a strategic sense, in the sense of warfare and conquest of the earth with Jesus Christ?
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Methuselah
From New World Encyclopedia (my bolding)
Methuselah or Metushélach (מְתוּשָׁלַח - "Man of the dart," or alternatively "when he dies, it will be sent" ) was the longest-lived person in history, according to the Hebrew Bible. His genealogy in the Book of Genesis records him as the son of Enoch and the grandfather of Noah through Lamech. Although he and his progeny are specially singled out as worthy of mention in the ten generations from Adam to Noah, almost nothing is said about him other than his marvelous lifespan of 969 years.
https://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/methuselah
@sonship saidAlternatively ?? LOL This is like how some religions rewrite the bible to suit their doctrine. There is no justification [apart from the desire to deceive people] to rewrite and change the meaning of words.
Methuselah
From New World Encyclopedia (my bolding)
Methuselah or Metushélach (מְתוּשָׁלַח - "Man of the dart," or alternatively "when he dies, it will be sent" ) was the longest-lived person in history, according to the Hebrew Bible. His genealogy in the Book of Genesis records him as the son of Enoch and the grandfather of Noah through L ...[text shortened]... an his marvelous lifespan of 969 years.
https://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/methuselah
Funk and Wagnals ? I think that was a discredited encyclopedia.
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12 Sep 21
Who is…
Methuselah
Hebrew: מְתוּשֶׁלַח —transliteration: Methushelach
also known as: Mathusala, Mathusale
Noah’s grandfather, Methuselah, was the most elderly man of whom we have any record. He is a son of Enoch, and a godly patriarch. His father Enoch was a very righteous man and was apparently taken directly to Heaven, without dying.
The exact meaning of this very ancient name is somewhat uncertain. Dr. Henry Morris said it may mean, “When he dies, judgment.” Others say: “When he is dead, it shall be sent” (“it” refers to the Deluge) (Cornwall and Smith, Exhaustive Dictionary of Bible Names).
Others say the name means: “Man of the dart” or “…javelin” (Holzinger / Also: Larry Richards, Every Man in the Bible ).
From https://christiananswers.net/dictionary/methuselah.html
@sonship saidTotal rubbish. Will have to check into some of this but off the top of my head, your post has THREE fundamental errors
For example, the ones TAKEN in rapture in Luke 17:34 - 37 are taken to FIGHT.
1. Christian saints do not fight the AntiChrist. This is the job of the mighty angels of God - Michael the Archangel and all the billions of heavenly armies.
2. Christian Saints are made Kings and Priests and will reign with Christ in the 1000 yrs. There is no AntiChrist and no Satan in the 1000 yr reign on Christ. Satan is bound.
3. Armageddon begins AFTER the 1000 yr reign of Christ. This is clear in Rev 20. There is no Armageddon before the millennial reign.
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. (Revelation 20:6-9 KJV)
Here is the correct sequence of events:
1. The first resurrection of dead Saints in Christ, along with the living Saints in Christ taken up [what Chrsitians call the rapture] and are priests with Christ
2. Christ's millennial reign begins
3. Satan, the dragon, the Devil .. is bound for 1000 yrs
4. After the 1000 yrs Satan is released
5. Satan gathers his armies to battle [THIS IS ARMAGEDDEON]
6. God destroys them from heaven
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Another opinion on the meaning of the Hebrew name Mathuselah
found at https://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/questions/2537/what-is-the-significance-of-methuselahs-name
[my bolding]
Long Hebrew names are made up of smaller words.
The two-letter subroot 'Meth' means death.
I believe Hirsh interprets the dead to be the 'ignoble masses' rather than unpack it from the name.
Strong sometimes interprets it to mean 'man' but most of the time in translation it is referring to a 'few men' and often to a few men who were doomed, or apparently doomed though they survive it. The words 'doomed' can often be substituted for 'men' (Meth) and still have a sensible narrative.
The vav at the beginning of a word is used for 'and' with Methushalach being a compound word we can use it as 'and' in the middle too.
The two-letter sub-root 'Shl' us used to ease-off the sandal, or to let fall some of the sheaves so that Ruth could pick them up.
The addition of the 'Ch' to the sub-root adds an emphasis or completeness in purpose which can be taken to be more of a 'thrusting' or 'sending out'. It is from this that the word SHalach takes the meaning of spear or dart.
In my opinion, 'man of the spear' is a secondary option since neither 'man' nor 'spear' are the primary meanings of the underlying sub-roots.
'Death and sent' or 'death and let-fall with purpose' best summarize the sub-roots. Sub-roots are not words. They are similar to hieroglyphic ideas such that the words made from them will contain the metaphors presented by the sub-roots.
"At his death [something] was sent' falls within the practice of interpreting sub-roots and the hieroglyphics of the letters.
But if we miss the connection, God gave us a second meaning so that those who interpret his name the other way also have a warning:
Methuselah means 'man of the spear' and since 'Cain' means 'possessor of the spear' Methuselah is parallel type to Cain as the one who brought death into the world.
So both meanings can be derived from the name, and both are fruitful in meditating upon the scriptures. It is probable that both meanings were intended by God.
12 Sep 21
@medullah saidIts not a perspective in my opinion, if it is clearly stated in the Bible as I have shown. If you can remember, how did you arrive at the conclusion that Armageddon comes at the return of Christ, which is also what Sonship believes.
@Rajk999
That’s a very interesting perspective, I’d always thought of Armageddon as the first cleansing.
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@medullah saidEnoch was taken to heaven and shown around certain places and informed of certain coming events. It has nothing to do with what Christians call the rapture.
@sonship
I was reading some of your discussion with Suzi Son, where do you feel that Enoch went to (this isn’t a bait I’m serious) and do you view the book of Enoch with any credence ?