Is Atheism Dead ?

@avalanchethecat

We have already covered this. Why would you uncritically accept and believe ancient tales written by men whose character and motives you cannot possibly even guess at this remove?

Why can we not take the Second letter to the Corinthians as a historical document and by it ascertain SOMETHING about the motive and the character of the author?

You may not agree with what the author believed and lived and died for. But you can hardly ignore that the author's character of self sacrifice, dedication, personal testimonial tells us much about Paul and what he was involved in.

You cannot just dismiss the epistles of Paul with "Well, that's just sacred religious writing." Its historical documentation and a clear window into what made up the man and his activities.

It talks about his dealings with money.
It talks about his dealings with rivalry and competition.
It talks about personal supernatural experiences he kept to himself for fourteen
years. It talks about his reaction to the severe suspicion and criticism from some of those very people he was serving.

That's not a small thing avalanchthecat this clear window into the soul of the man Paul, author of 13 of the 27 New Testament documents.

Most of us with an audience like that who we were risking our lives for would tell them to forget it, pick up are marbles and go somewhere else? "Forget you all !!".

Paul writes - "Behold, this third time I am ready to come to you, and I will not be a burden; for I do not seek what is yours but you. For the children ought not to store up for the parents, but the parents for the children. But I, I will most gladly spend and be utterly spent on behalf of your souls, If I love you more abundantly, am I loved less?" (2 Cor. 12:14,15)

He is saying he doesn't want their money but for them to love the Lord Jesus.
He is saying he is coming and will support himself and not financially burden them.
He is saying he doesn't care if they suspect evil motives of him, he loves them as a caring parent loves his needy children.

We have a very clear window into the motives and character of the Apostle Paul.
What made him like this? Was he crazy? Was there something to his zeal?

@sonship said
That's not a small thing avalanchthecat this clear window into the soul of the man Paul, author of 13 of the 27 New Testament documents.

Most of us with an audience like that who we were risking our lives for would tell them to forget it, pick up are marbles and go somewhere else? "Forget you all !!".

Paul writes - [b]"Behold, this third time I am ready to come to ...[text shortened]... racter of the Apostle Paul.
What made him like this? Was he crazy? Was there something to his zeal?

You most certainly don't have a 'clear window' into the motives and character of the 'Apostle' Paul. You feel you have because you believe what you have read about him and, possibly, by him. I don't share your credulity.

@avalanchethecat said
We have already covered this. Why would you uncritically accept and believe ancient tales written by men whose character and motives you cannot possibly even guess at this remove?

I won’t spend time identifying all the reasons I believe in the Resurrection of Jesus Christ, but if you’re interested in some of the reasons, they can be found in an article entitled “15 Logicsl Reasons to Believe the Resurrection,” which I believe can be found through Google.

Why would you uncritically accept and believe ancient tales written by men whose character and motives you cannot possibly even guess at this remove?

I protest much at this notion. First Thessalonians is a letter in which Paul with unbelievable boldness says this -

IE. YOU KNOW what kind of people we apostles were when we were with you. We remind you of what you know. You full well know how ethically we behaved, how morally upright we behaved, how we cherished and loved you like a mother her kids. You know good and well what we were like."

Now this is all paraphrase. BUT if you READ First Thessalonians you have very clear window into Paul's character and of the standard of character he demanded of those who would be his working associates.

Not only is he speaking of his character he is boldly REMINDING the audience to recollect. Suppose you said here "You guys on Red Hot Pawn know what kind of person I was." A lot of people might say "Yea we remember and groan."
Not many of us could be so bold to proclaim and REMIND people how impeccable and high standard our conduct was to which they have to admit.

I think you have to take these documents with more realism and not quickly dismiss them as "Once upon a time in a far off land" kinds of myths."

Peter says he and those with him on the mount as witnesses to Jesus being transfigured did not follow cleverly devised myths.

"For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we became eyewitnesses of that One's majesty. " (2 Pet. 1:16)

You're saying cleverly devised myths invented the New Testament. Peter says they were eyewitnesses and that they didn't follow superstition or cunningly concocted mythology.

"For He received from God the Father honor and glory, a voice such as this being borne to Him by the magnificent glory: This is My Son, My Beloved, in whom I delight. And this voice we heard being borne out of heaven while we were with Him in the holy mountain." (vs. 17,18)

@ghost-of-a-duke said
An innocent child dying of a terminal disease. Where is your omnipotent and perfectly loving deity?

Love how Christians asked for evidence that God does not exist and then dodge this question.

@sonship said

Why would you uncritically accept and believe ancient tales written by men whose character and motives you cannot possibly even guess at this remove?

I protest much at this notion. First Thessalonians is a letter in which Paul with unbelievable boldness says this -

IE. [i] YOU KNOW what kind of people we apostles were when we were with you. We ...[text shortened]... ce we heard being borne out of heaven while we were with Him in the holy mountain." (vs. 17,18) [/b]

It's all written and selected with the quite undisguised intent of manipulating your beliefs and behaviour.

@avalanchethecat

It's all written and selected with the quite undisguised intent of manipulating your beliefs and behaviour.

That is wild paranoia and conspiracy which tells us a bit more about you than the letters of Paul.

Tell me, what BENEFIT did the Apostle Paul get from his dedication?
Did it make him financially well off?
Did it spare him lots of troubles in life?

It got him imprisonment.
It got him beheaded.

It got him no permeant position of dignity in a religious organization - not pension, no retirement, no fame but lots of infamy and the loss of his head. He complained that he lost the following of a whole region (perhaps of colleagues) in 2 Tim. 1:15.

English Standard Version
You are aware that all who are in Asia turned away from me, among whom are Phygelus and Hermogenes.

Can you detect any despair, dejection, or discouragement in the tone of any of his letters - some written from prison? Some written while he was confined to jail and his rivals were running around damaging his work, trashing his name, and troubling the churches he helped to establish.

Can you detect any despair in ANY of the epistles of Paul?
One might ask what made him like this.

It requires more of some blind leap of superstition to imagine the letters were fabricated to create a hoax over on the world for 2,000 years.

@sonship said
@avalanchethecat

It's all written and selected with the quite undisguised intent of manipulating your beliefs and behaviour.

That is wild paranoia and conspiracy which tells us a bit more about you than the letters of Paul.

Tell me, what BENEFIT did the Apostle Paul get from his dedication?
Did it make him financially well off?
Did it spare ...[text shortened]... superstition to imagine the letters were fabricated to out a hoax over on the world for 2,000 years.

Lol, what do you know about this man that you didn't get from this heavily polluted source? And as for 'paranoia' and 'conspiracy', I laugh out loud again; the writers and the editors have made no secret of their purposes.

@avalanchethecat


You should laugh at the hoaxes by which you were deceived to believe in missing links and ape men.

You should laugh out loud at a few bones being separated by many yards of space put together to be one "person".

You should laugh out loud at the forgeries of fossils sold for money to put one over on people eager to find evidence of such transitional links between species.

@avalanchethecat

Lol, what do you know about this man that you didn't get from this heavily polluted source? And as for 'paranoia' and 'conspiracy', I laugh out loud again; the writers and the editors have made no secret of their purposes.

You should give a hearty "laugh out loud" at the thought that a DNA molecule and protein synthesis carried out in the cell is the result of lucky accidents - no purpose, no plan, no meaning.

LOL that and take a look in the mirror at one duped to an extraordinary degree.

Argument by Loud Laughter is what avalanchethecat is opted for.
The poverty of his rational is hidden behind a avalanche of loud laughter instead.

Folks we are not going to get any evidence that God doesn't exist from the atheist here. We are going to get loud laughter as a feeble substitute for evidence.

@sonship said

Folks we are not going to get any evidence that God doesn't exist from the atheist here. We are going to get loud laughter as a feeble substitute for evidence.

But an atheist 'has' given you an answer:

An innocent child dying of a terminal disease. Where is your omnipotent and perfectly loving deity? What more evidence do you need that such a God does not exist?

@avalanchethecat

Lol, what do you know about this man that you didn't get from this heavily polluted source?

You brag about superior education. I doubt just a little bit.

We have more reason to believe the letters of Paul are authentic then we have for the vast majority of ancient writings which cause you no alarm to want to believe.

Don't watch it because your ignorance is your BLISS.
Don't watch ANY of it Avalanche. Stay there in blissful arrogance and ignorance.

The Resurrection Argument That Changed a Generation of Scholars - Gary Habermas at UCSB
YouTube&t=1045s

@Ghost-of-a-Duke

THAT Ghost is another issue. THAT is "I DON'T LIKE THE WAY GOD RUNS THINGS if He is real."

I think that is another issue. Your disapproval of the way God would let something happen is your saying you don't like God's ways if there is a God.

Are you claiming this is evidence that there is no God?
Yes or No?