@kellyjay said
No offense taken and I will say yes, and not only that I would have no respect for anyone who didn’t share what they thought of as truth.

Thank you, I appreciate that.

This is actually all that we can do. I have also made my choice as to what I believe, for the simple reason that it makes most sense to me (as well as some other reasons that are not important now.)

But if all of us would just continue to practice our faith to the best of our understanding and abilites, WITHOUT making out that it is the only valid one , this world would be a much better place.

Thank you for this discussion, it has been worthwhile as far as I'm concerned.

@caljust said
Thank you, I appreciate that.

This is actually all that we can do. I have also made my choice as to what I believe, for the simple reason that it makes most sense to me (as well as some other reasons that are not important now.)

But if all of us would just continue to practice our faith to the best of our understanding and abilites, WITHOUT making out that it is the on ...[text shortened]... uch better place.

Thank you for this discussion, it has been worthwhile as far as I'm concerned.

One last question if you are up for it, if not no worries. Since we can judge because there is a good, does that mean what is good remain independent from all of us? If not are we back to saying there is no such thing as a real good, only opinions?

@kellyjay said
Since we can judge because there is a good, does that mean what is good remain independent from all of us? If not are we back to saying there is no such thing as a real good, only opinions?

If you have difficulty, for some reason, with using your moral compass to make sound decisions about actions and interactions, you can just lean on the religious faith that you prefer: Christianity in your case. It can guide you if you want.

@kellyjay said
One last question if you are up for it, if not no worries. Since we can judge because there is a good, does that mean what is good remain independent from all of us? If not are we back to saying there is no such thing as a real good, only opinions?

FMF has a point that is certainly valid. You can believe that there is an absolute Good, it won't hurt anybody.

But it is very easy to see that "good" is also relative. The farmer prays for rain for his crops, that would be "good" for him but on the same day the Sunday School teacher prays for a fine sunny day for the school picnic. What is "good" is different for the two of them.

Do the best you can and play the hand that you're dealt.

@caljust said
FMF has a point that is certainly valid. You can believe that there is an absolute Good, it won't hurt anybody.

But it is very easy to see that "good" is also relative. The farmer prays for rain for his crops, that would be "good" for him but on the same day the Sunday School teacher prays for a fine sunny day for the school picnic. What is "good" is different for the two of them.

Do the best you can and play the hand that you're dealt.

You missed my question! I grant we all have opinions based upon this or that! You can believe water is wet, fire is hot and someone somewhere can disagree. The thing is reality is very unforgiving, so if think you can fly depending how high up you are testing that, it could end you.

Our foundational world views shape everything, from how we behave to our expectations on what comes next if anything at all. You seem to be suggesting that it only matters what we make of ourselves, as long as you do what is good for you? Do you think that is how goodness is really measured? That again makes all judgment calls based upon what we want and like, even after we have acknowledged our perspectives can be flawed.

@kellyjay said
You missed my question! I grant we all have opinions based upon this or that! You can believe water is wet, fire is hot and someone somewhere can disagree. The thing is reality is very unforgiving, so if think you can fly depending how high up you are testing that, it could end you.

Our foundational world views shape everything, from how we behave to our expectations on ...[text shortened]... ls based upon what we want and like, even after we have acknowledged our perspectives can be flawed.

Sorry if I missed your question, I am trying my best to understand what you are getting at, but clearly I am not doing a good job of it.

What I THINK you are saying, is still that there is a very true, tangible and real reality "out there".

Something like, say, a fire, and if I have an incorrect "perception" of that fire, I am liable to get burnt.

What I am trying to say is that yes, even if that were true (which I doubt, as explained earlier) then the only way that I can know about that fire is with my senses, and hence, perception.

I have no other way of knowing that the fire is there. What I should do, is educate myself, learn how to read (for example) the signs of fire, etc, and then, when confronted with fire, I will know how to react correctly.

I am not sure if that even answers your question.

What I am suggestng is NOT that it only matters what we "make of ourselves" (whatever you mean by that) but that I must use my faculties to do the best I can to interact with reality, but I still insist that the only way I can do so, is with my senses.i

Edit: And that includes my Spiritual senses, although that is, of course, a topic for another discussion.

@kellyjay said
That again makes all judgment calls based upon what we want and like, even after we have acknowledged our perspectives can be flawed.

The guidance your moral compass gives you is a synthesis of learning and principle that cannot be described as "what we want and like". Indeed, a moral compass will often steer us away from "what we want and like".

@caljust said
Sorry if I missed your question, I am trying my best to understand what you are getting at, but clearly I am not doing a good job of it.

What I THINK you are saying, is still that there is a very true, tangible and real reality "out there".

Something like, say, a fire, and if I have an incorrect "perception" of that fire, I am liable to get burnt.

What I am trying ...[text shortened]... And that includes my Spiritual senses, although that is, of course, a topic for another discussion.

If we are our own moral compasses, if we are the one who judges the vertical and horizontal lines by our perceptions, if we are the one who judges by our own internal opinions than there is nothing within that is even connecting to the universe for correction. We have 5 senses, these show us we need to see the outside for what it is, and if our perceptions are clouded, by the filters we put into place I hate that one, those are wicked people, and so on we are blind. If all of us are going our own way, don't you realize, the real truth not someone's own personal version it, it will be the one thing, that is different than the masses? Truth is exclusive, the truth, the way, the life isn't going to be found within, but without in One.

@kellyjay said
If we are our own moral compasses, if we are the one who judges the vertical and horizontal lines by our perceptions, if we are the one who judges by our own internal opinions than there is nothing within that is even connecting to the universe for correction. We have 5 senses, these show us we need to see the outside for what it is, and if our perceptions are clouded, by th ...[text shortened]... Truth is exclusive, the truth, the way, the life isn't going to be found within, but without in One.

How did you know what was morally right and wrong before you were a Christian?

@kellyjay said
Truth is exclusive, the truth, the way, the life isn't going to be found within, but without in One.

I'm sorry, KJ, but we are going around in circles.

I don't believe you have understood anything that I have said at all.

Your basic premise, time and again, is that (Christ is) the way, the truth and the life.

That is fine, and you are 100% entitled to that opinion, because you are in good company, and half or more of America believes that.

ALL I am trying to say, and I have repeated that now several times, that another person speaking from within their own religious view,point, would make a different claim. And you said (in a very recent post of yours) that you accept that and would not expect anything less.

Now here you are AGAIN claiming that this external standard of the One, is what is crucially important for all mankind.

The first part of your post recognises that we only have our 5 senses to interact with reality, and by its very nature that must be subjective.

Personally, I think we have thrashed this subject to death.

At the risk of repeating myself - yet again! - I do not want to lure you away from your religion and beliefs. I do not say you are wrong or ridiculous. If you believe that you have identified and accepted the One as your standard, go in peace and serve the Lord!

But allow others to persue what THEY believe is THEIR correct way.

As I said already, let us give this subject a decent burial and move on...

@kellyjay said
If we are our own moral compasses, if we are the one who judges the vertical and horizontal lines by our perceptions, if we are the one who judges by our own internal opinions than there is nothing within that is even connecting to the universe for correction.

You have your own unique moral compass with its unique permutation of your experience, your learning, and your principles about right and wrong ~ influenced in part by your religious beliefs ~ as well as by your nature and character. This is how you formulate your opinions about moral issues; this is how you are able to judge things, including yourself.

Your moral compass formulates and uses your "internal opinions" about how you should interact with things external to you. The "correction" you talk about will come from your family, your neighbours, your community, your religious congregation [if you have one], the society in which you live, and - if necessary - from the law enforcement authorities and courts system. These are the same groups that are the source of your norms and values.

In many cases, the "correction" will come from you yourself having reflected on the rights and wrongs of something you did bearing in mind the consequences and the reaction your behaviour was met with.

If you use your belief in and/or fear of a supernatural being to help you formulate your opinions about moral issues, that's all well and good. You process all this with your moral compass.

@kellyjay said
If all of us are going our own way, don't you realize, the real truth not someone's own personal version it, it will be the one thing, that is different than the masses?

If you want - to some degree - to compel "the masses" to adopt or be obedient to your personal opinions regarding "the real truth", you probably need to go into politics.

@caljust said
I'm sorry, KJ, but we are going around in circles.

I don't believe you have understood anything that I have said at all.

Your basic premise, time and again, is that (Christ is) the way, the truth and the life.

That is fine, and you are 100% entitled to that opinion, because you are in good company, and half or more of America believes that.

ALL I am trying to say, ...[text shortened]... is THEIR correct way.

As I said already, let us give this subject a decent burial and move on...

Sorry if I have misunderstood you but do you believe it is possible for two religions that make contradictory claims to both be true at the same time ?

@caljust said
FMF has a point that is certainly valid. You can believe that there is an absolute Good, it won't hurt anybody.

I think KellyJay has stopped talking to me for a while. He tried to use the notion of me 'not supporting punishment for people harming my family, in my home', in an unbelievably crass analogy for my objection to eternal torture for a lack of belief in Jesus [which I don't believe is real but I object to it on the grounds of it being morally incoherent].

KellyJay is so peculiarly prideful that he is 'punishing' me for telling him I thought his analogy was unbelievably crass.

We were right in the middle of a long running discussion and now he has bailed out. His moral compass won't let him talk to me about moral compasses.

@dj2becker said
Sorry if I have misunderstood you but do you believe it is possible for two religions that make contradictory claims to both be true at the same time ?

Yes - but not in the way you think, i.e. being equal in all respects. That would be logically impossible.

I believe that contradictory religions, (take Christianity, Islam and Judaism) all have a PART of the truth, but that the TRUTH is bigger than any one of them on their own. See it as at a higher level.

Similarly the Eastern religions, some of whom predate Christianity by hundreds, if not thousands of years. It would be the height of arrogance for a westerner to say that they are devoid of any truth or value.

The picture of the blind men and the elephant comes to mind. We each hold a part of the elephant, be it the trunk, the ears or the legs, and from that proclaim that THIS is the elephant.

The truth is bigger than all of us. Remember, we see in part, as in a glass darkly.