Illusions opinions reality

@ghost-of-a-duke said
'Are those things worthy of trust, yes I believe they are and believe compared to human perceptions they are far more trustworthy.'


Worthy of trust 'TO YOU.' - Why oh why would something worthy of trust 'TO YOU' be worthy of trust 'TO ME?' - Does this work the other way around too? If something is worthy of trust to someone else (say the wrings of the Koran) would you then accept that as a plumb line for trusted truth?

You say the words as if they apply to me, because I'm in my own little universe totally and completely limited to the thoughts within my head, as if we are not part of the universe where truth is real and does not depend on either of us to be true.

Saying good for me, is a belittling remark, not much different than, you poor thing.

You bring up a someone who believes in the Koran, you belittle them as well, to you faith is meaningless, just something you believe. You guys are so full of yourselves and you don't see the arrogance of it. You wrap everyone's beliefs into pretty little bows that compared to everyone else' beliefs are just some type of mental masturbation. You know better, you know, no one has truth they all only have an opinion, and that is as worthless as the next guys.

The only way you can compare everyone's beliefs is to look at them in the light of reason, do they meet all the tests that can be applied, do they fall apart on its face due to contradiction? You don't allow for that, you don't put any belief system to the test for truth, because you have allowed truth to die in your own little minds, good for you, I think not.

@kellyjay said
The only way you can compare everyone's beliefs is to look at them in the light of reason, do they meet all the tests that can be applied, do they fall apart on its face due to contradiction? You don't allow for that, you don't put any belief system to the test for truth, because you have allowed truth to die in your own little minds, good for you, I think not.

You are entitled to your personal opinions. Sharing them is what this forum is for.

Can you give an example of how Ghost of a Duke's beliefs " fall apart on its face due to contradiction"?

Can you give an example of how Ghost of a Duke has a "little mind"?

Things like whether your spiritual beliefs "meet all the tests that can be applied" having looked at them "in the light of reason" is something completely subjective and lies completely within the bounds of your personal opinions.

@kellyjay said
You guys are so full of yourselves and you don't see the arrogance of it. You wrap everyone's beliefs into pretty little bows that compared to everyone else' beliefs are just some type of mental masturbation.

I think your faith ~ and the faith of my Muslim neighbour ~ is much, much more than "mental masturbation" - which is a term you have introduced, not me, and not Ghost of a Duke - and I have never attempted to "wrap everyone's beliefs into pretty little bows", and I don't think Ghost of a Duke has either.

I think you are making stuff up. I think your faith is much more than "mental masturbation" [as you put it] because it gives you a sense of purpose in life, it helps you to come to terms with the inevitability of death, and it probably helps your moral compass to work.

These are no small matters. They are no small matters for my Muslim neighbour either.

@kellyjay said
You say the words as if they apply to me, because I'm in my own little universe totally and completely limited to the thoughts within my head, as if we are not part of the universe where truth is real and does not depend on either of us to be true.

I'm in my own little universe totally and completely limited to the thoughts within my head

All your thoughts ARE within your head. That's the only place your thoughts can be. You are limited to that. We all are limited in the same way. Thoughts not within your head are, by definition, someone else's thoughts.

@kellyjay said
Saying good for me, is a belittling remark, not much different than, you poor thing.

Is your faith, and its effect on your life, not 'good for you' then?

@kellyjay said
You say the words as if they apply to me, because I'm in my own little universe totally and completely limited to the thoughts within my head, as if we are not part of the universe where truth is real and does not depend on either of us to be true.

Saying good for me, is a belittling remark, not much different than, you poor thing.

You bring up a someone who believes ...[text shortened]... or truth, because you have allowed truth to die in your own little minds, good for you, I think not.

No belittlement intended (towards anyone).

"Saying good for me, is a belittling remark, not much different than, you poor thing."

In fairness kelly, I didn't say 'good for you,' I said 'worthy of trust to you' which really don't equate as the same. - My point was that things worthy of trust to you are no more meaningful to things worthy of trust to other people and certainly don't acquire singularity of truth due to your personal trust.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
No belittlement intended (towards anyone).

"Saying good for me, is a belittling remark, not much different than, you poor thing."

In fairness kelly, I didn't say 'good for you,' I said 'worthy of trust to you' which really don't equate as the same. - My point was that things worthy of trust to you are no more meaningful to things worthy of trust to other people and certainly don't acquire singularity of truth due to your personal trust.

Okay no insult intended, I believe you.
Sorry I felt that way!

You are still not seeing the picture if you are pushing this doctrine of what is true for you...crap. Who cares what I or anyone 'feels' about truth, truth not my opinion is the reality we seek, and to have everyone dismiss truth as an opinion, removes from each the ability to have a correct opinion, even a wrong one!

If all opinions are meaningless or equally meaningful as all others. This would setup conditions about truth that would mean opinions cannot even rise to the level of ever even being able to be, either right or wrong.

If a level isn't something that can provide the correct answer each time for what it is used for and looked at, it shouldn't be trusted and the truth of the error would need to be pointed out to those trusting it. If it is always right, than saying those that trust it are right, and those who don't are wrong, opinions don't matter, truth does! If this cannot be seen because it is self-evident, there is a pathetic mindset void of real reason at play here. May as well shut off the mind, it is a meaningless exercise attempting to understand anything!

Not sure what worldview came up with this notion, but I prefer the one that says we are to test everything.

@kellyjay said
Who cares what I or anyone 'feels' about truth, truth not my opinion is the reality we seek, and to have everyone dismiss truth as an opinion, removes from each the ability to have a correct opinion, even a wrong one!

If you feel this way, why do spend your time here expressing your personal opinions about "reality" and "truth" and about how you believe your opinion is the "correct opinion"?

@kellyjay said
...opinions don't matter, truth does! If this cannot be seen because it is self-evident, there is a pathetic mindset void of real reason at play here. May as well shut off the mind, it is a meaningless exercise attempting to understand anything!

Who are the people who have "a pathetic mindset void of real reason"?

Do you count yourself among them?

Or are you referring to people who have arrived at different beliefs than you?

If your religious beliefs give you solace and hope and meaning in your life, how is holding those beliefs a "meaningless exercise"?

@kellyjay said
Not sure what worldview came up with this notion, but I prefer the one that says we are to test everything.

What is your "test" for your personal opinions and beliefs regarding humans going on to an afterlife, with a proportion of them getting tortured for eternity?

@kellyjay said
Okay no insult intended, I believe you.
Sorry I felt that way!

You are still not seeing the picture if you are pushing this doctrine of what is true for you...crap. Who cares what I or anyone 'feels' about truth, truth not my opinion is the reality we seek, and to have everyone dismiss truth as an opinion, removes from each the ability to have a correct opinion, even a w ...[text shortened]... e what worldview came up with this notion, but I prefer the one that says we are to test everything.

The 'truth' you tender here is no more or less compelling than the truth tendered by the Hindu or atheist. Yes, truth is unaffected by opinions, but you have offered nothing to suggest truth lies at the heart of your opinion/belief and not mine. (Or anyone else's). What if the 'truth' is that no God exists? I know you don't believe that, but what if that 'is' the truth? Nothing you say here, as a consequence, would have any true meaning.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
The 'truth' you tender here is no more or less compelling than the truth tendered by the Hindu or atheist. Yes, truth is unaffected by opinions, but you have offered nothing to suggest truth lies at the heart of your opinion/belief and not mine. (Or anyone else's). What if the 'truth' is that no God exists? I know you don't believe that, but what if that 'is' the truth? Nothing you say here, as a consequence, would have any true meaning.

You are still mixing opinions, truth cuts through all of that. If any of the major belief systems are reality, all of the others would not be if they are opposed to it. For example if there is but one God, all belief systems that had none or many would be wrong simply due to they oppose the singular God, whoever that maybe. If there are no gods, then all of the beliefs in God, and gods would all be wrong because they propose deity when there is none. If one believed in gods than both the Monotheist and Atheist would be wrong since the Monotheist left a few off of the table, and the Atheist had none.

It would be meaningless to suggest how strongly any follower believed in any of these belief system mattered. Compelling arguments matter, if for example you can show one belief system falls on its face by the contradiction you can make a case to dispute it and maybe dispel it. Right now at least in this discussion people cannot even admit there are right and wrong answers to these things, and is it possible to know? Repeating a belief isn't proving or disproving anything, rejecting something out of hand without being able to offer up a counter proposal is as lazy as it gets and maybe clearly showing a bias that could be missing evidence.

@kellyjay said
Right now at least in this discussion people cannot even admit there are right and wrong answers to these things, and is it possible to know?

We can but speculate about things that nobody can demonstrate to be "true" or "real". That means me. That means CalJust and Ghost of a Duke. And it means you.

@kellyjay said
Compelling arguments matter, if for example you can show one belief system falls on its face by the contradiction you can make a case to dispute it and maybe dispel it.

You have never presented any "compelling arguments"; you have only ever presented personal opinions that you find compelling.

@kellyjay said
Repeating a belief isn't proving or disproving anything, rejecting something out of hand without being able to offer up a counter proposal is as lazy as it gets and maybe clearly showing a bias that could be missing evidence.

You propose that everyone exists forever - either, after death, in something that some call "Heaven", or in something that some call "Hell". My counter proposal is that we all die and that is the end.