Illusions opinions reality

@kellyjay said
Well that is the debate isn't it? If its all opinions than nothing any of us say is of any real consequence to anyone else; however, if there is a truth we are pointing to that has real world consequences for everyone that truth not our opinion of it will come crashing down on everyone!

We can but speculate. Your opinions about a God - and what He supposedly wishes - have no "real consequence" for me in my life. It is, of course, your personal opinion that they do. So there we have it: it's 'all opinions'.

YouTube

Discussion then question answer at Yale on questions close to what has been covered by this thread. 2 hour with first hour on discussion, second hour questions from those that watch. Very interesting discussion.

I don't care if you watch this or not, so no need to write me and tell me why you are not going to watch.

@KellyJay

I actually listened to quite a bit of this, not the full two hours I admit, because I fast forwarded some of it.

This man says essentially the same things you say, so no surprise that you posted it.

But, if I may paraphrase his entire argument, it would go something like this:

"We live in a post-truth era. Everybody proposes that what they believe, is the true truth.

Hence we need an objective, external arbiter of what the rruth is, because we cannot take anybody's subjective truth to be this final arbiter.

So here is what I propose:

Because the Bible is so reliable, and because many scholars accept the biblical record, we should take the Bible and specifically what Jesus said, as this objective, final arbiter of Truth."

It is really so incredible, that it is not obvious to him, or KJ, or so many others, that what in effect he is saying (very eloquently) is basically:

"Here is what I believe to be the truth. It is not subjective, but objective! We should take THIS as the final arbiter of truth"

and he doesn't even pick up the irony of what he is saying...

@CalJust

It is really so incredible, that it is not obvious to him, or KJ, or so many others, that what in effect he is saying (very eloquently) is basically:

"Here is what I believe to be the truth. It is not subjective, but objective! We should take THIS as the final arbiter of truth"

The Bible has subjective truths and objective truths.

@caljust said
@KellyJay

I actually listened to quite a bit of this, not the full two hours I admit, because I fast forwarded some of it.

This man says essentially the same things you say, so no surprise that you posted it.

But, if I may paraphrase his entire argument, it would go something like this:

"We live in a post-truth era. Everybody proposes that what they believe, is th ...[text shortened]... HIS as the final arbiter of truth"

and he doesn't even pick up the irony of what he is saying...

I think you and I are close on this for exactly the reasoning you are using. I keep saying our opinions are just opinions mine included! I am not asking you to believe what I believe because I believe it! I saying look at the one who is truth, as I would tell you to use a level, plumb line, compass, or scale when judging those things that need to be right.

Kudos for watching I think you are a honest seeker to being willing to look at things giving them an honest hearing.

The speaker, you, and I are only in a position to do what you said, that only proves in my opinion we need a fix position of reference to grasp the up, down, left, right, fast, slow, right, wrong, good, and evil.

@caljust said
@KellyJay

I actually listened to quite a bit of this, not the full two hours I admit, because I fast forwarded some of it.

This man says essentially the same things you say, so no surprise that you posted it.

But, if I may paraphrase his entire argument, it would go something like this:

"We live in a post-truth era. Everybody proposes that what they believe, is th ...[text shortened]... HIS as the final arbiter of truth"

and he doesn't even pick up the irony of what he is saying...

I would suggest watching the whole thing.

@kellyjay said
I saying look at the one who is truth, as I would tell you to use a level, plumb line, compass, or scale when judging those things that need to be right.

The speaker, you, and I are only in a position to do what you said, that only proves in my opinion we need a fix position of reference to grasp the up, down, left, right, fast, slow, right, wrong, good, and evil.

Hi KJ,
I really, really, am not going to repeat everything that I said before, because language fails me to explain to you what is going on here.

But just for one last time, let me quote your own words back to you.

You keep saying that we need a plumb line, etc etc, and not be subjective about it, and then in the same breath, without pausing, you suggest that this plumb line, etc etc, is "the one who is truth", in other words, the specific doctrine and religion that you have accepted as your own.

There is NO WAY of getting around the fact that in doing so, you present YOUR OWN SPECIFIC POV as this objective plumb line, etc.

And you can 't get more subjective than that.

Again, there is nothing at all wrong with saying: "This is how I see it, and this is my experience, and I really believe it would be wonderful if you saw it the same way."

But don't claim that it is an objective plumb line.

Is that really so hard to see? Please, oh pretty please, just say you understand this!

@sonship said
The Bible has subjective truths and objective truths.

It doesn't have any "objective truths" about supernatural or divine things.

@caljust said
Hi KJ,
I really, really, am not going to repeat everything that I said before, because language fails me to explain to you what is going on here.

But just for one last time, let me quote your own words back to you.

You keep saying that we need a plumb line, etc etc, and not be subjective about it, and then in the same breath, without pausing, you suggest that this plum ...[text shortened]... lumb line.

Is that really so hard to see? Please, oh pretty please, just say you understand this!

Well I don’t know what you do for a living and I am not asking either. I will say this there are different types of writing so to allow the reader to make of it as they will like some poetry, sometimes things are written to make people think like a manifesto, then there are other kinds like product labels to inform you of the reality of what you are buying at a grocery store, for example milk on the milk cartons. You can also look at Material Safety Data Sheets that gives details about the chemicals being used, be they toxic, flammable, and so on.

If you come to the conclusion nothing can be true outside of your opinions, I think you will live your life until the truth dispels your unbelief or confirms it. Depending on what you are looking at for truth it is either going to be a sure foundation for your life, or not. If not the fall will be great!

@kellyjay said
If you come to the conclusion nothing can be true outside of your opinions, I think you will live your life until the truth dispels your unbelief or confirms it.

All you have, KellyJay, are your opinions about the "truth" regarding supernatural and spiritual matters. No doubt you will live your life according to your opinions about the "truth".

@kellyjay said
Depending on what you are looking at for truth it is either going to be a sure foundation for your life, or not. If not the fall will be great!

Your opinions about the "truth" are the foundation for your life, just as CalJust's and my opinions about the "truth" are the foundations for our lives. The idea that "the fall will be great" for people who have different opinions from you appears to be one of the foundations for your spiritual life.

@caljust said
Hi KJ,
I really, really, am not going to repeat everything that I said before, because language fails me to explain to you what is going on here.

But just for one last time, let me quote your own words back to you.

You keep saying that we need a plumb line, etc etc, and not be subjective about it, and then in the same breath, without pausing, you suggest that this plum ...[text shortened]... lumb line.

Is that really so hard to see? Please, oh pretty please, just say you understand this!

Was thinking about this part of your post.

"But don't claim that it is an objective plumb line.

Is that really so hard to see? Please, oh pretty please, just say you understand this!"

The thing is I believe, it is a matter of truth, it is a matter of faith, it is what I put my faith in when it comes to those things in my life that I trust for answers. Are those things worthy of trust, yes I believe they are and believe compared to human perceptions they are far more trustworthy. We all have faith, we all are putting our trust into something, is it worthy of our trust is another question all together.

@kellyjay said
The thing is I believe, it is a matter of truth, it is a matter of faith, it is what I put my faith in when it comes to those things in my life that I trust for answers. Are those things worthy of trust, yes I believe they are and believe compared to human perceptions they are far more trustworthy. We all have faith, we all are putting our trust into something, is it worthy of our trust is another question all together.

All this is your personal opinion about "the truth". It is subjective. "Faith" cannot create "objectivity".

@kellyjay said

The thing is I believe, it is a matter of truth, it is a matter of faith, it is what I put my faith in when it comes to those things in my life that I trust for answers.

It is this sentence which is causing our misunderstanding.

I would respond: "Good for you! You have this faith, and it gives you stability and all those other good things. Yay! Go for it! It's totally fine!"

But then, all I want you to realise (and think about it for a little more than a passing second) is that the Other Guy, be it Muslim or Buddhist, or whatever, can say exactly the same thing to you. Word for word.

But your current response is: "Obviously this other guy is in error! He does not have the truth, the objective plumb line. Only I have the real, true truth!"

Isn't that what you are saying? And then the only alternative left is to fight each other.

Wouldn't a more positive and mature response be: "OK, I don't believe in things the way you do, but I grant you the right to differ from me. Go in peace!"

Isn't this the response that you yourself would want from the Other Guy? Instead of a suicide bomb aimed at you and your children?

Wouldn't that solve some of the problems on this planet?

@kellyjay said
Was thinking about this part of your post.

"But don't claim that it is an objective plumb line.

Is that really so hard to see? Please, oh pretty please, just say you understand this!"

The thing is I believe, it is a matter of truth, it is a matter of faith, it is what I put my faith in when it comes to those things in my life that I trust for answers. Are those thin ...[text shortened]... ll are putting our trust into something, is it worthy of our trust is another question all together.

'Are those things worthy of trust, yes I believe they are and believe compared to human perceptions they are far more trustworthy.'


Worthy of trust 'TO YOU.' - Why oh why would something worthy of trust 'TO YOU' be worthy of trust 'TO ME?' - Does this work the other way around too? If something is worthy of trust to someone else (say the wrings of the Koran) would you then accept that as a plumb line for trusted truth?