@caljust said
@KellyJay
I think I have said all I want to say on this subject. Thanks for listening and for your responses.

Maybe you should now respond to fmf and wolfgang who have also addressed you.

In peace.

If so I'm disappointed, so far one of the key points was just brought up and you are not going to continue this? Judgment is key, the only reason we can tell what is good or better is through judgment and it occurs all the time. You called it a catch 22, and what I think you really discovered is that a judgeless life is impossible, making that world view that says nothing is different than the next isn't possible! What we find and what we actually is through judgment find that one is better there another that there is a good. Condemnation is brought up by others all the time, that is judgment, you are in error is judgment, it is without a doubt a self-contradiction.

"That’s the Catch 22, isn’t it. "

I don't think even the scripture tells us not judge, but it does do is tell us how which is self examination before you attempt to fix someone else.

@wolfgang59 said
At that point you believed in a god (or liked talking to imaginary friends).
You were therefore already conditioned, perhaps not by family, but by education, friends, society.

If born in Iran you would have been asking Allah for help.

God is self existing, unlike you or I we came from some thing before us as everything else in this universe. It isn't a matter of family, education, friends, or society those things do not alter truth, but opinions.

@kellyjay said
God is self existing, unlike you or I we came from someone as everything else in this universe. It isn't a matter of family, education, friends, or society those things do not alter truth, but opinions.

And what you are saying here is an opinion too.

@kellyjay said
Judgment is key, the only reason we can tell what is good or better is through judgment and it occurs all the time.
I don't think even the scripture tells us not judge, but it does do is tell us how which is self examination before you attempt to fix someone else.

Sorry to disappoint you, so here I am back.

Actually, in retrospect, it isn’t really about judging. We both agree that we should exercise our cognitive faculties constantly to discern the good from the bad, the true from the error, etc.

What I should have said, is not “Don’t judge the guy you don’t agree with”, but rather don’t ridicule, marginalise, attack or ostracise him.

It is OK for you to believe that the other guy is wrong (yes, by judging) but then allow a little bit of humility to rise up in your heart and say “who am I to say he is wrong? Let God judge him”. Then you will still be scripturally on solid ground.

@caljust said
Sorry to disappoint you, so here I am back.

Actually, in retrospect, it isn’t really about judging. We both agree that we should exercise our cognitive faculties constantly to discern the good from the bad, the true from the error, etc.

What I should have said, is not “Don’t judge the guy you don’t agree with”, but rather don’t ridicule, marginalise, attack or ostracise ...[text shortened]... ho am I to say he is wrong? Let God judge him”. Then you will still be scripturally on solid ground.

I was disappointed you were leaving, not that you came back to respond.

I'm not really clear about your answer, if I am misunderstanding you please clear this up for me if you don't mind. I agree with we should judge, and I think we need to attempt to do it all in humility not in a prideful, hateful, manner. I think I don't want to avoid specific actions, because depending on the evil confronted with some responses require something more than a smile.

I will say that the warning in scripture about judgment isn't that it should not be done, but that if it is done, we need to make sure we are not guilty of the same thing. So if we see a speck in the other's eyes the log in our own needs to be dealt with first.

@kellyjay said
I will say that the warning in scripture about judgment isn't that it should not be done, but that if it is done, we need to make sure we are not guilty of the same thing.

And you use your personal moral compass to determine whether, in your own opinion, you "are not guilty of the same thing", right?

@kellyjay said


I think I don't want to avoid specific actions, because depending on the evil confronted with some responses require something more than a smile.

Yes, I know you meant disappointed that I left, and that is what I referred to but my response came out wrong - sorry.

Let’s remember what we were discussing: somebody else’s belief system that is different from mine.

For example, my son who is a very devout Buddhist, and a family friend who are beautiful caring and compassinate Muslims. My comments refer to such people.

Of course, when you talk about evil, we should confront that wherever we meet it. But that is a completely different subject. I am talking about respecting one another’s views, not necessarily actions.

@caljust said
Yes, I know you meant disappointed that I left, and that is what I referred to but my response came out wrong - sorry.

Let’s remember what we were discussing: somebody else’s belief system that is different from mine.

For example, my son who is a very devout Buddhist, and a family friend who are beautiful caring and compassinate Muslims. My comments refer to such people ...[text shortened]... etely different subject. I am talking about respecting one another’s views, not necessarily actions.

Okay, I actually agree with that each of us needs to be respected. When we do confront evil that is another thing all together in my opinion. Simply disputing the ends and outs of someone's views that should always be done with respect. Confronting wickedness and evil, that is different, and is still the heart of what I've been talking about.

What do we use to measure what is good or bad, as I pointed out here and elsewhere something outside of ourselves shows us reality much better than our own observation, we use plumb lines, we use levels, we use compasses so when someone says what is level we never trust our eyes if we want to get it right, the same thing with directions which way is north we use a compasses. We can mark things for our lines on what is level, or point which way to go, we are trusting what we use to show us, and make claims about that nature. The claims are not based solely on our opinions, but the thing we trust. With goodness, righteousness, what do you use to know if someone is good or not?

@kellyjay said

What do we use to measure what is good or bad, as I pointed out here and elsewhere something outside of ourselves shows us reality much better than our own observation, we use plumb lines, we use levels, we use compasses so when someone says what is level we never trust our eyes if we want to get it right, the same thing with directions which way is north we use a compasses. With goodness, righteousness, what do you use to know if someone is good or not?

Again, you have put your finger exactly on the problem.

And that is that we need standards.

When we measure a line, or weigh something, we must first all agree how long a meter is or a kg (or a foot, in the US and a pound). In fact, this standardisation is so important in our society that there is an international association for the sole purpose of managing that whole issue - the International Standards Organisation, ISO.

Unfortunately, there is no Spiritual Standards Organisation. The result being that each and every religion has established its own.

Have you ever considered that each religion is entirely self-contained, and internally consistent. They each have their own Holy Book, their own sacred history, rituals and customs, etc etc.

So when you, for example, argue with a muslim that he is wrong about God and Jesus and quote from the Bible to prove your point, he will argue just as hard with you that you are wrong and quote from the Qoran (although I have met some who actually base their case on the Bible.)

In any event, when in your posts you keep on coming back to the need for a standard, a compass, a totally sure and safe indicator of what is right and wrong, you have to be very careful to avoid having one that is designed from your own particular Holy Book. Because nobody outside of your own flock will accept that particualr standard.

Fortunately, I do believe that there is such a yardstick. (or at least as close to one as we can get).

When you compare most major religions, and here I include Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, Judaism as well as Christianity, then you will find that one component of their faith that all have in common is that all of them promote kindness, compassion, generosity, gratitude, and the other virtues that Christianity calls the Fruit of the Spirit.

In the absence of an officially santioned and generally accepted Spiritual Standard, we could do a lot worse than looking into this doctrine as being a good indicator of what our behaviour should be.

Because you would then be following in Christ's footsteps as well.

@caljust said
Again, you have put your finger exactly on the problem.

And that is that we need standards.

When we measure a line, or weigh something, we must first all agree how long a meter is or a kg (or a foot, in the US and a pound). In fact, this standardisation is so important in our society that there is an international association for the sole purpose of managing that ...[text shortened]... what our behaviour should be.

Because you would then be following in Christ's footsteps as well.

Let me say this right now I have not read your whole post so look for more. I just want to point out something I heard another say whose name I don’t recall. So this really isn’t a reply to your post only something to think about due to a little part I did read.

Within all belief systems can the founder be replaced by someone else who taught all the same exact things? So if Buda wasn’t the guy but another came up with all his teachings would the message remain the same? If it is the message remains the same, does it stand his truth doesn’t depend upon him, it is transcendent in that anyone could have come up with the teachings?

This is not true of Jesus Christ, He is the message!

@caljust said
Again, you have put your finger exactly on the problem.

And that is that we need standards.

When we measure a line, or weigh something, we must first all agree how long a meter is or a kg (or a foot, in the US and a pound). In fact, this standardisation is so important in our society that there is an international association for the sole purpose of managing that ...[text shortened]... what our behaviour should be.

Because you would then be following in Christ's footsteps as well.

Okay read the post, the Spirit in fruit of the Spirit is the Holy Spirit a Being in the God Head. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit it is not just the aftermath of a good deed or walk.

@kellyjay said
Okay read the post, the Spirit in fruit of the Spirit is the Holy Spirit a Being in the God Head. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit it is not just the aftermath of a good deed or walk.

You see, you have done exactly what I said - you have referred back to your own specific Holy Book for proof and validation.

Unfortunately, that is no good to anybody not part of your particular group. It is circular reasoning.

"My religion is the true one, therefore what my religion says is truth".

@caljust said
You see, you have done exactly what I said - you have referred back to your own specific Holy Book for proof and validation.

Unfortunately, that is no good to anybody not part of your particular group. It is circular reasoning.

"My religion is the true one, therefore what my religion says is truth".

Was I the one that brought up the fruit of the Spirit? You think what I said about Jesus being different than the other founders of the various faith is in error? Can we change the name of the founders and give someone else the message and the different faith remain intact except for the founder's name? I think it is an important point when looking all of the faiths of the world, is there anything that sets one apart from all of the others? They each have their own twists, but are they all the same in that they could have the same sources (mankind), or is there one quite different than the rest?

We are looking at them all are we not, I actually agree with most of what you have said so far, and do point out some areas we don't see I to eye.

@kellyjay said
Was I the one that brought up the fruit of the Spirit? You think what I said about Jesus being different than the other founders of the various faith is in error?

Let us just focus on one question at this time.

Do you agree that it is a fact that a proponent of another religion would argue just as hard and persuasive that their religion is the right one as you do that Christianity is the right one?

If you can just acknowlegde this simple fact, then I think we have come a long way.

What I personally believe about this or that is not relevant to this debate.

And, (please don't take offence at this statement) taking your propensity for long-winded sidetracks into account, I would really appreciate (this time) a short and honest answer.

@caljust said
Let us just focus on one question at this time.

Do you agree that it is a fact that a proponent of another religion would argue just as hard and persuasive that their religion is the right one as you do that Christianity is the right one?

If you can just acknowlegde this simple fact, then I think we have come a long way.

What I personally believe about ...[text shortened]... ong-winded sidetracks into account, I would really appreciate (this time) a short and honest answer.

No offense taken and I will say yes, and not only that I would have no respect for anyone who didn’t share what they thought of as truth.