29 Jan 22
@kellyjay saidWell sort of. Its not two systems. There is the first resurrection and there is the second resurrection. They are two different things, 1000yrs apart. This is the first one and its all Christian Saints in Christ
It sounds like you are saying there are two systems for God's grace, one for those who profess Christ as Lord and Savior "Christians" and everyone else. If I'm following you and odds are I am not, Jesus saves everyone, but for some, it's either faith and works or damnation, even though they are saved. Others work, and because these people are the good and righteous from Adam ...[text shortened]... risk of faith, works, and damnation as the others? Am I getting that right, or did I miss something?
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.(Revelation 20:6 KJV)
These are the righteous ones. Not the evil ones Paul spoke of, who will not inherit the Kingdom of God. These evil Christians are raised at the end of the 1000yrs.
Sounds like you are finally trying to understand what I have been saying for years. If you are then you need to read what Paul said is the reason for the death of Christ, which I have been quoting over and over in the last few month. If you think Christ died only for those who profess faith then that is incorrect. If you think Christ death automatically gives eternal life to those who profess faith, again that is incorrect.
Christ died so that ALL PEOPLE from Adam to the end of the world, will be released from the curse of sin in the flesh ie the imputed sin which came from Adam. All people are saved and justified in that sense, but not all people inherit the Kingdom of God .... as Paul stated many times,
29 Jan 22
@rajk999 saidYes, there are two resurrections; I agree, we are far from on the same page, but I have never understood you. You seem to be suggesting there are two sets of rules for everyone, some singled out simply because they call themselves Christian from everyone else. Because they have faith, they can be damned for it if they don't do work, while others are being held to a different standard. These others are, I assume, good people who do good works and don't need to worry about the Christain faith thing that is limited to just those with Christian faith?
Well sort of. Its not two systems. There is the first resurrection and there is the second resurrection. They are two different things, 1000yrs apart. This is the first one and its all Christian Saints in Christ
[i]Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and sha ...[text shortened]... tified in that sense, but not all people inherit the Kingdom of God .... as Paul stated many times,
29 Jan 22
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@kellyjay saidThere could be many sets of rules, I do not know that. I am certain however, that there is not one hard and fast rule like Christians seem to be suggesting, which is profess faith otherwise burn in hell for eternity. That is nonsense. A parable of Jesus makes that point:
Yes, there are two resurrections; I agree, we are far from on the same page, but I have never understood you. You seem to be suggesting there are two sets of rules for everyone, some singled out simply because they call themselves Christian from everyone else. Because they have faith, they can be damned for it if they don't do work, while others are being held to a different ...[text shortened]... 't need to worry about the Christain faith thing that is limited to just those with Christian faith?
And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath. But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.(Luke 12:42-48 KJV)
Several categories of people here
1. Those who knew the will of God and did it - A blessed Christian, the faithful and wise servant, who will rule with Christ
2. Those who knew the will of God and did evil .. an evil Christian who will be cut off and punished with the unbelievers
3. Those who knew Gods will and did nothing, a complacent Christian doing neither good nor evil - punished with many stripes
4. Those who did not know Gods will [non Christians] and sinned are punished with few stripes;
The reason for this is given clearly : For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required
These points were made again by Christ in the parable of the talents, also made by Paul several times, by Peter at lease once, about different types of Christians and their different fates. It is a very foolish doctrine many Christians profess that they are eternally saved and all their sins are forgiven or that they do not have to account for sin.
29 Jan 22
Here is a similar one by Paul
Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are. (1 Corinthians 3:13-17 KJV)
3 types of Christian
One gets rewarded
One gets nothing
One gets destroyed
29 Jan 22
Peters version
For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. (2 Peter 2:20-21 KJV)
The born again Christian is brought out of the world by Christ. If they go back into their old way of life of sin, their fate in the end is worse that the if they did not know Christ.
So Christians proclaiming that they are saved and have the Holy Spirit and they will do good works, or God has good works for them to do is not what the bible says. Jesus and all the Apostles preached that Christians have a greater responsibility and they MUST DO good works and live righteously, otherwise their end is worse than that of a non Christian.
29 Jan 22
@rajk999 saidI'm not sure how there could be many sets of rules that you are not sure about, but you are sure there isn't one; if you cannot be sure about the many, how could you possibly be sure about even one? I am also not sure why you keep making distinctions between good Christians and bad ones that don't apply to everyone equally; taking on the label Christian doesn't alter one physiology; they don't become something non-human so that now they have a different set of rules applied to them as everyone else.
There could be many sets of rules, I do not know that. I am certain however, that there is not one hard and fast rule like Christians seem to be suggesting, which is profess faith otherwise burn in hell for eternity. That is nonsense. A parable of Jesus makes that point:
[i]And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler ...[text shortened]... hey are eternally saved and all their sins are forgiven or that they do not have to account for sin.
We will be judged by God using His standards and our own, those standards we accept outside of us like the Law, or however we decide what is good and evil. Those who choose to go by the Law are now subject to it; if they break the Law in a major or minor infraction, they have broken the Law and are therefore guilty. Each infraction is another that shows that they failed at obeying the Law. If in my standard I condemn someone for lying to me, and I lie, I've just shown I'm aware of that standard by condemning someone for it, even while I do it myself.
When Jesus talks about any topic, every Word He says should be taken into account, not just when He was speaking about judgment day. Jesus doesn't change. His Word doesn't change. With Him, there is no time when He speaks truth to one group of people here then changes it to suit a different audience there, creating a contradiction. This consistency in textual truth is also true of all Bible writers; the truths that the Bible gives us will never be contradicted by Jesus or any of the other writers when everything is looked at in the proper context.
Loving God and each other is the only Law we are to obey now, and by doing that, we will fulfill all that is required of us, including the good works. Paul writes in Romans 13:8 that when someone loves others has done what the Law commands. It isn't too difficult to see if we love others around us by how we treat them. Are we feeding the hungry, clothing those in need, being kind to someone hurting? When we do not love those around us, we are not meeting their needs; we are being hateful, not loving, condemning, not forgiving; it is faith without works that anyone who knows to do good and isn't doing it will see that their faith is useless.
29 Jan 22
@rajk999 saidWell, as I read that text, if you have the Spirit of God in you and you are obeying God, you are good; with God but not so good will have your works judged they will be revealed by fire and destroyed for the sort of work it was, but you remain saved. If God isn't in you or you are defiling the Temple of God, your body, things will not go well for you. What will happen the Lord talks about, and so do several Bible authors in many settings as they talk to different people.
Here is a similar one by Paul
Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; ye ...[text shortened]... ns 3:13-17 KJV)
3 types of Christian
One gets rewarded
One gets nothing
One gets destroyed
29 Jan 22
@rajk999 saidI'm not a once saved, always saved Christian; I believe you can walk away from the Lord many did, one betrayed Him. It is a frightening thing to fall into the hands of an angry God.
Peters version
[i]For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy comman ...[text shortened]... MUST DO good works and live righteously, otherwise their end is worse than that of a non Christian.
29 Jan 22
1 edit
@kellyjay saidDId you read what Jesus said? Maybe its a bit over your head.
I'm not sure how there could be many sets of rules that you are not sure about, but you are sure there isn't one; if you cannot be sure about the many, how could you possibly be sure about even one? I am also not sure why you keep making distinctions between good Christians and bad ones that don't apply to everyone equally; taking on the label Christian doesn't alter one phy ...[text shortened]... something non-human so that now they have a different set of rules applied to them as everyone else.
Jesus made clear distinction between
those who know what is the will of God and those who do not know
those who do the will of God and those who do not.
those who are good and those who are evil
Paul and all the Apostles did the same.
Yes, am I hearing you right? Taking on the label of Christian resulted in boasting of having the Holy Spirit and being forgiven for all sins. Have you forgotten that Christians have continually boasted of their status
- saved
- justified
- born again
Yes, according to the bible, they do have a different set of rules.
Read your bible.
29 Jan 22
@rajk999 saidYes, I've studied every word that Jesus has said in scripture, and at no time can we look at one verse to exclude all the others. If we do, we can miss apply something that is covered somewhere else by taking it out of context. As I have pointed out to you, we need the whole Bible without grasping all of the other things He said on any topic; we can twist things into something entirely contrary to the Word. Those who love the Lord will be obeying Him, no one disputes that, but He isn't accepting us because we are so good, He makes us good. He isn't accepting us because we are so holy; He makes us Holy.
DId you read what Jesus said? Maybe its a bit over your head.
Jesus made clear distinction between
those who know what is the will of God and those who do not know
those who do the will of God and those who do not.
those who are good and those who are evil
Paul and all the Apostles did the same.
Yes, am I hearing you right? Taking on the label ...[text shortened]... born again
Yes, according to the bible, they do have a different set of rules.
Read your bible.
Jesus said that He is the Way, Truth, and Life and that the way is narrow few find it. Do you dispute that from scripture, Jesus is making clear that not everyone, even the majority, is going through Him; they don't choose the narrow way, which is Jesus Christ. Jesus told us to abide in Him; how can anyone abide in someone they deny, that they reject, that they don't know?
Matthew 7:12-14
English Standard Version
“So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.
“Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.
If I'm off doing my own thing, if I walk away, if I'm not abiding in Christ, I'm no different than anyone else. I am not living under a different set of rules; every one of us has to go through Jesus Christ; we have to make Him Lord and Savior. The distinction isn't due to us; we are sinners; the distinction comes from Him, not us, He is the Way.
29 Jan 22
@kellyjay saidWhat the hell are you smoking ?
Yes, I've studied every word that Jesus has said in scripture, and at no time can we look at one verse to exclude all the others. If we do, we can miss apply something that is covered somewhere else by taking it out of context. As I have pointed out to you, we need the whole Bible without grasping all of the other things He said on any topic; we can twist things into somethi ...[text shortened]... distinction isn't due to us; we are sinners; the distinction comes from Him, not us, He is the Way.
29 Jan 22
@rajk999 saidI ask you, without Jesus Christ, are any of us righteous before God? If not, then Jesus is the only answer for our unrighteousness because we are unrighteous before God. It is pretty simple, Jesus or on our own, His grace and mercy or our efforts of some other means to be acceptable to God, which will fail, because again, Jesus is the only Way.
What the hell are you smoking ?
29 Jan 22
1 edit
@kellyjay saidYou need some professional psychiatric counselling. We are talking about a particular topic and then you branch off to another matter. This is your mo all the time when your back is against the wall and your church doctrine is shown t be garbage.
I ask you, without Jesus Christ, are any of us righteous before God? If not, then Jesus is the only answer for our unrighteousness because we are unrighteous before God. It is pretty simple, Jesus or on our own, His grace and mercy or our efforts of some other means to be acceptable to God, which will fail, because again, Jesus is the only Way.
Do you remember what we were talking about?
Hint - Its about the parable of the faithful and wise steward .
