Hitler

Originally posted by FMF
Both my children used to like lending or giving their toys away when they were toddlers. When they were babies they pissed and poo'd and puked and cried and grabbed toys and threw toys and chewed toys and banged toys together, with or without other babies around. You want me to believe they were in all this already exhibiting some "sinful" nature and, therefore, a predisposed inclination to disobey the Christian God?

Would you accept a scientific journal if its research were to show that babies are selfish by nature?

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
Would you accept a scientific journal if its research were to show that babies are selfish by nature?

If they manage to link it to the "will" of supernatural beings, yes, I might.

Originally posted by FMF
If they manage to link it to the "will" of supernatural beings, yes, I might.

It is obvious that you don't believe anything is a sin. Hence it does not surprise me that you don't think selfishness is a sin or that babies that are being selfish do so because they have a sinful nature.

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
I believe the Bible teaches that we are all born with a sinful nature. My experience with my kids does not seem to contradict this. I did not teach my kids to lie or be selfish, it comes naturally. Rather, I have to go to great lengths to teach them to tell the truth and put others first.

I don't dispute that moral sense and motivation comes from a combination of nature and nurture. But if you want to insist that babies are inclined to disobey your God figure, shouldn't you be saving it for other people who actually believe your God figure has expressed some instructions that babies disobey?

Originally posted by FMF
I don't dispute that moral sense and motivation comes from a combination of nature and nurture. But if you want to insist that babies are inclined to disobey your God figure, shouldn't you be saving it for other people who actually believe your God figure has expressed some instructions that babies disobey?

You are the one who responded to my comments, none of them were aimed at you. By the way, do you think that someone who is 'selfless' is displaying 'moral' behavior?

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
It is obvious that you don't believe anything is a sin. Hence it does not surprise me that you don't think selfishness is a sin or that babies that are being selfish do so because they have a sinful nature.

I think selfishness can lead to immoral acts, of course. It can lead to negligence and endangerment and many differing degrees of damage or deception or coercion of others. While it can lead to such things, I don't see selfishness, in and of itself, as being immoral. Nor do I see any reason to characterize the interactions of a human baby with its confusing, frustrating and sometimes frightening environment as being connected to disobeying a supernatural being's wishes ~ other than to contribute to the concoction of an incredibly misanthropic outlook on life, which is the way you are using it..

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
By the way, do you think that someone who is 'selfless' is displaying 'moral' behavior?

I think moral behaviour is indicated by deeds and outcomes as experienced by others. Motivation and thoughts are not, in my view, "moral behaviour".

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
You are the one who responded to my comments, none of them were aimed at you.

In a discussion forum like this, if you are aiming dogmatic points at a poster like apathist, then you should consider them also aimed at other posters, like me, who are similar to apathist.

Originally posted by FMF
I think selfishness can lead to immoral acts, of course. It can lead to negligence and endangerment and many differing degrees of damage or deception or coercion of others. While it can lead to such things, I don't see selfishness, in and of itself, as being immoral. Nor do I see any reason to characterize the interactions of a human baby with its confusing, fru ...[text shortened]... he concoction of an incredibly misanthropic outlook on life, which is the way you are using it..

Of course we have a different outlook on life. I believe all humans are selfish by nature because that is part of their sinful nature. Why do you think children are selfish and lie without anyone having taught them to do so?

Originally posted by FMF
I think moral behaviour is indicated by deeds and outcomes as experienced by others. Motivation and thoughts are not, in my view, "moral behaviour".

Ok so do you think humans by nature behave morally or do they have to be taught to behave morally?

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
Of course we have a different outlook on life. I believe all humans are selfish by nature because that is part of their sinful nature.

Was there nothing in what I said that you thought you might address specifically, in the spirit of discussing something, as it were, aside from saying what I said was "different" from what you believe?

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
Ok so do you think humans by nature behave morally or do they have to be taught to behave morally?

I have already told you. In fact I told you this in great detail only a few months ago. I think humans are essentially moral, social, empathetic beings - hard wired, so to speak, by their very nature - who also absorb and are taught about how to behave as they grow up as a result of nurture.

Originally posted by FMF
I have already told you. In fact I told you this in great detail only a few months ago. I think humans are essentially moral, social, empathetic beings - hard wired, so to speak, by their very nature - who also absorb and are taught about how to behave as they grow up as a result of nurture.

I think humans are essentially moral, social, empathetic beings

All humans or some humans? What about the others who are not? How do you explain 'immoral' behavior? Do you believe that a child that lies what taught how to lie?

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
Why do you think children are selfish and lie without anyone having taught them to do so?

I don't remember this happening with my children. It may be caused by bad parental example - or that of other people they come into contact with. I certainly have no reason to believe that it is because of an inherent inclination to disobey a god that was passed down from Adam by way of male sperm etc. etc.

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
All humans or some humans? What about the others who are not? How do you explain 'immoral' behavior? Do you believe that a child that lies what taught how to lie?

Lack of empathy. Varying degrees of sociopathy. I think in most cases a child that lies is mimicking others who populate its environment; and in the remaining cases may well be doing so as part of the trial and error involved in growing up. You seem to think it has something to do with supernatural beings.