Cult I was born into finally exposed.

@petewxyz said
Was society negligent?

Why did you not address my first answer to this question? You want me to type an answer again?

@fmf said
Rape is certainly a crime even if the perpetrator has "fixed beliefs that what [he is] doing is not abusive" and whether or not parental/adult neglect - that leads to rapes going unreported and women and girls getting raped - is a "crime" or not in a legalistic way does not have a bearing on the morality of neglect and turning a blind eye.

Yes. If you think it would be preferable for people who witness the rape of an adult to also be compelled by law to report it I would agree. Of course they should be entitled to a due process in which their ability to know what they were witnessing (and understand that it was rape) was assessed and whilst that might seem, at first sight, like it should be cut and dry I doubt it could be. I think there is a moral argument for doing this regardless of the law, but there is also a moral argument for considering why others don't manage and considering what society should do to make them more able to manage. This is also true for the survivors of rape themselves who rarely manage to get the perpetrator convicted.

@fmf said
Why did you not address my first answer to this question? You want me to type an answer again?

Posts cross while people are still typing.

@petewxyz said
Yes. If you think it would be preferable for people who witness the rape of an adult to also be compelled by law to report it I would agree.

The moral issues surrounding this exist regardless of whether certain actions are "compelled by law" or not.

@fmf said
The story you told before was that your parents knew about the attack on your sister on the night it happened but did not tell anyone, as you put it, out of respect for your sister's wishes. You described it as being a demonstration of "loyalty" to her that was a family/moral obligation that outweighed other considerations.

That is nonsense you just made that up you are confusing the story I told with someone else’s.

@divegeester said
A family were members of a sexually abusive cult. Their daughter was raped by a leader and the parents and wider family did nor report nor do anything to prevent further rapes occurring. They remained in the cult with their daughter.

Whom are you talking about here?

@dj2becker said
That is nonsense you just made that up you are confusing the story I told with someone else’s.

Nope. I am not confused at all. If people think I am lying about you, I am OK with that.

@fmf said
The moral issues surrounding this exist regardless of whether certain actions are "compelled by law" or not.

Yes. See the bottom of the paragraph that you have quoted from. The big question is how could this have been stopped earlier. Analogy is weak, but I think the whistleblowing analogy is worthy of consideration. How does society create a culture in which it finds out what is going wrong sooner and prevents further abuses. Easy when you are an innocent witness, but far harder when you realise that you have been a part of something that was doing harm and raising the alarm involves revealing your part in it.

On the one hand you can simply pass judgement on people's morality. On the other hand you have to consider how society helps them stop protecting the perpetrator by understanding what it is that prevents people from speaking out.

@petewxyz said
The big question is how could this have been stopped earlier.

Victims and their families need to alert others and report "this".

@fmf said
Victims and their families need to alert others and report "this".

Sure, but the reason Safeguarding is everybody's business is that they clearly don't always manage and arguably don't receive sufficient help to manage.

@petewxyz said
On the one hand you can simply pass judgement on people's morality. On the other hand you have to consider how society helps them stop protecting the perpetrator by understanding what it is that prevents people from speaking out.

It's good to hear that, on one hand, we can look at it in terms of what moral obligation exist for those aware of rapes and the danger of future rapes. Meanwhile, you can look at what moral and/or legal obligations society has to facilitate people seeking to speak out, by all means. Regardless of how the former is made difficult by the latter, the moral obligations mentioned in the former still exist ["mental health" and "psychosis" et al permitting]. This being a spirituality forum, I am more interested in moral compasses and moral obligations than I am in South African law and corrupted law enforcement institutions.

@petewxyz said
Sure, but the reason Safeguarding is everybody's business is that they clearly don't always manage and arguably don't receive sufficient help to manage.

It only becomes "everybody's business" if victims and their families take action that results in "everybody" being alerted.

@fmf said
It only becomes "everybody's business" if victims and their families take action that results in "everybody" being alerted.

Absolutely, so cultures also need a moral, spiritual, possibly religious philosophy that makes it possible or even likely people will speak out. The problem is that the cultures that are severe in their moral judgements might not have the best record for people feeling that they can speak out or for getting things in the open. On the other hand a culture with no moral values makes anything possible. What is the right balance? What is needed from a society's moral or spiritual philosophy to make it less likely that abuse will be hidden within families with nobody speaking out and everybody in fear of whistleblowing? How do you have moral values without people hiding from moral judgement where speaking out would be preferable?

Isn't it morally everybody's business before the family speak out if they are part of a culture that supresses disclosure?

@petewxyz said
Isn't it morally everybody's business before the family speak out if they are part of a culture that supresses disclosure?

While you're setting up a committee of the great and good - a Royal Commission perhaps, reporting back in 2025 - and, don't get me wrong, I will applaud whatever policies they recommend to alter the culture - I will find myself morally obliged to warn others with children about what happened to mine, to alert the authorities if possible or practical, and to remove my children from danger and help others to do the same. Of course, if I was "unfit to be a parent" or suffering from a "psychotic illness" or "psychosis" or if I was a parent who "believed that child abuse was okay and a part of proper religious rituals" and therefore complicit in abuse, then I wouldn't do any of those things.

@petewxyz said
What is needed from a society's moral or spiritual philosophy to make it less likely that abuse will be hidden within families with nobody speaking out and everybody in fear of whistleblowing?

Investment in advocacy and counselling, in police training, in legal processes and institutions, in investigative powers and capacities including forensics, amendments to laws regarding evidence and witnesses and protections for victims, contempt of court regulations pertaining to perpetrators trying to get at victims, other deterrence measures, along with more women police, women lawyers, more women social workers, more women doctors and more women legislators, and investment in things like resettlement, halfway houses and other accommodation.

This is what I have learned about what one can do on an issue like this through my involvement in the relatively new fight against domestic and sexual violence in the patriarchal and conservative culture in which I live.