@fmf saidI think we'll call that a straw man.
While you're setting up a committee of the great and good - a Royal Commission perhaps, reporting back in 2025 - and, don't get me wrong, I will applaud whatever policies they recommend to alter the culture - I will find myself morally obliged to warn others with children about what happened to mine, to alert the authorities if possible or practical, and to remove my children fro ...[text shortened]... proper religious rituals" and therefore complicit in abuse, then I wouldn't do any of those things.
I think we would both act promptly if we saw evidence of child abuse. I am pleased to hear you would, I know from my working life that I have done.
The question I am asking is what might be the qualities of a culture in which most people act, given that the statistics suggest a serious lack of disclosures and a serious lack of convictions in most cultures. What is the moral or spiritual philosophy that has the best approach to Safeguarding? Is it the cultures that make the more powerful moral judgements? Is it the more liberal cultures? What is the role of culture in tragedies of this nature?
@petewxyz saidI saw your questions as windy. So a Royal Commission can sit on them. Meanwhile, instituions need to be reformed. More women need to be involved in decision making about policies attendant thereto. If politicians offering such reforms cannot get elected, then there is little hope of change.
I think we'll call that a straw man.
@petewxyz saidLike I said, appoint a Royal Commission for this important 'comparing cultures' and 'tragedies of nature' stuff. Get some retired politicians, some bishops, retired police chiefs, a few peers of the realm, and so on. They can report back on spiritual philosophy.
What is the moral or spiritual philosophy that has the best approach to Safeguarding? Is it the cultures that make the more powerful moral judgements? Is it the more liberal cultures? What is the role of culture in tragedies of this nature?
@fmf saidI think we are in agreement regarding political reforms. At the more day to day level the thing that interested me was that mental health clinics didn't seem to get the disclosures in numbers that should be anticipated based on the statistics regarding numbers of people with mental health difficulties who have either been abused or lived in homes where there has been abuse. People can be silenced by their anticipation of extreme negative reactions and I guess some of that is attributable to their own injuries and their understandable and good reasons not to trust. However, I was struck by the fact I was reading the kind of reactions that they were in fear of expressed in this thread in the name of religion. So what is the relationship between religious and spiritual philosophies and the reactions that survivors of abuse and violence come to anticipate? Is it all about their good reasons not to trust or is the fear of disclosure heightened by religious notions of shame, guilt and judgement? Does the religious philosophy of a culture influence who can speak out?
I saw your questions as windy. So a Royal Commission can sit on them. Meanwhile, instituions need to be reformed. More women need to be involved in decision making about policies attendant thereto. If politicians offering such reforms cannot get elected, then there is little hope of change.
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@petewxyz saidGet a good smattering of religious people and critics of religion to join your Commission and let them duke it out.
So what is the relationship between religious and spiritual philosophies and the reactions that survivors of abuse and violence come to anticipate? Is it all about their good reasons not to trust or is the fear of disclosure heightened by religious notions of shame, guilt and judgement? Does the religious philosophy of a culture influence who can speak out?
If a rape victim feels ignorant and untrained police officers are not going to humiliate and harass her, that there will be facilities for physical examination and collection of evidence, that there will be sympathic counsellors and lawyers, and courts equipped to deal with cases, and that she will have a place to stay and some money etc if necessary, then more and more will come forward, and more and more rapists will be exposed, inhibited or prosecuted. I think all this practical stuff supersedes religious notions of shame, guilt and judgement.
@fmf saidBoth rather than either or, but I thought you were asking specifically to discuss religious and spiritual philosophies within this forum rather than laws and services??
Get a good smattering of religious people and critics of religion to join your Commission and let them duke it out.
If a rape victim feels ignorant and untrained police officers are not going to humiliate and harass her, that there will be facilities for physical examination and collection of evidence, that there will be sympathic counsellors and lawyers, and courts equipped ...[text shortened]... ecuted. I think all this practical stuff supersedes religious notions of shame, guilt and judgement.
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@petewxyz saidI'm interested in the practical application of moral obligations. You asked me - several times - what society should do to make people more likely to come forward, so in the end, I gave you my answer.
Both rather than either or, but I thought you were asking specifically to discuss religious and spiritual philosophies within this forum rather than laws and services??
I am not pinning hopes on affecting anyone's "religious and spiritual philosophies" in order that more rape victims come forward.
Instead, I'd pin my hopes on the kind of practical things I suggest.
The roll back of backward male-perpetuated religion-related inhibitions about "shame" and "guilt" would soon start falling and fading away in the wake of practical reforms like I suggested.
Do you think the fight against domestic and sexual violence [here where I am] by empowering women has the blessing of all religious conservatives replete with their entrenched philosophies? No. Events will overtake them.
@fmf saidYes, I think that's hopefully true. I think you find victim blaming very much within the areas of religious and spiritual philosophies that need to be superseded. When religious ritual is incorporated into sexual abuse it seems to often take the form of the perpetrator suggesting they are somehow dealing with evil located within the victim. It seems to link to the 'it happened because they were asking for it due to sexual thoughts, behaviours and desires located in the victim' way of thinking that has lead to re-abuse by services and legal systems.
I'm interested in the practical application of moral obligations. You asked me - several times - what society should do to make people more likely to come forward, so in the end, I gave you my answer.
I am not pinning hopes on affecting anyone's "religious and spiritual philosophies" in order that more rape victims come forward.
Instead, I'd pin my hopes on the kind of p ...[text shortened]... l religious conservatives replete with their entrenched philosophies? No. Events will overtake them.
@petewxyz saidOK, I will leave the tackling of religious and spiritual philosophies [in order to increase the incidence of whistleblowing, right?] to you.
Yes, I think that's hopefully true. I think you find victim blaming very much within the areas of religious and spiritual philosophies that need to be superseded. When religious ritual is incorporated into sexual abuse it seems to often take the form of the perpetrator suggesting they are somehow dealing with evil located within the victim. It seems to link to the 'it happen ...[text shortened]... ires located in the victim' way of thinking that has lead to re-abuse by services and legal systems.
Maybe the fact that you are an atheist who admits you know next to nothing about religious belief - a form of objectivity, perhaps - will put you in good stead.
You can put your money on changing people's religious beliefs. You'll need to get people who see this issue your way to do things like get onto the boards of directors of cults and alter their curriculums and retrain their preachers and counsellors etc.
Meanwhile, I'll put my money on changing the facts on the ground viz a viz how rape-whistleblowing is processed.
@fmf saidWow, a field of strawmen. 😆
OK, I will leave the tackling of religious and spiritual philosophies [in order to increase the incidence of whistleblowing, right?] to you.
Maybe the fact that you are an atheist who admits you know next to nothing about religious belief - a form of objectivity, perhaps - will put you in good stead.
You can put your money on changing people's religious beliefs. You'll ne ...[text shortened]... 'll put my money on changing the facts on the ground viz a viz how rape-whistleblowing is processed.
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Who is to blame FMF and Dive? The rape victim that has been emotionally, physically and psychologically abused and brainwashed to the extent that they are too afraid to speak or the people doing the brainwashing and instilling the fear in the victim? Go on tell me the victim is to blame.