Einstein's Relativity Is Wrong?

@metal-brain said
He stole it from Lorentz. The math is the same.

Do you accept Einstein was wrong to reject the existence of the ether? He accepted it in the end.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einstein_aether_theory

I noticed you evaded my questions. Try answering them.

Einstein didn't "steal" the theory of relativity from Lorentz, it's not like there was anything stopping Lorentz (one of the most renowned scientists in the world at that time) from publishing it before Einstein. Relativity does use the equations for Lorentz transformations, but Lorentz did not appreciate their deeper meaning until Einstein's 1905 paper on special relativity.

@metal-brain said
He stole it from Lorentz.

No, it wasn't "stole". You don't understand how science works. It it perfectly legitimate in science to build on top of other peoples work and scientists rightly do that all the time. He NEVER STOLE credit for Lorentz maths. So that's just BS. You used other peoples maths; so what? That's not stealing credit and is just fine.

In addition, as I already said before relativity "was in fact based on the principle of relativity which was in turn based on the only way he could think how to solve certain apparent logical contradictions in physics as it was once understood that existed before relatively. "
Thus the principle of relativity, which his theory was based on, did NOT come from Lorentz maths but rather Lorentz maths was merely used in relativity; big difference.

Do you accept Einstein was wrong to reject the existence of the ether?

I have already answered that. The answer is NO. He was NOT wrong to reject the existence of the ether and you NEVER change his mind about the type of ether that is required to 'vibrate' when a photon passes through it. Exactly WHICH part of what I said do you not understand?

He accepted it in the end.

No, not the older 'vibrating' ether theory but rather he later decided ANOTHER ether theory, NOT the older one, was the correct one. And that newer one, unlike the older one, does NOT contradict relativity. Thus he did NOT change his mind about the older ether theory and he was right to reject that older one all the long. And relativity is NOT based on EITHER ether theories. So, NO, this later view of his does NOT indicate relativity could be wrong.

@kazetnagorra said
Einstein didn't "steal" the theory of relativity from Lorentz, it's not like there was anything stopping Lorentz (one of the most renowned scientists in the world at that time) from publishing it before Einstein. Relativity does use the equations for Lorentz transformations, but Lorentz did not appreciate their deeper meaning until Einstein's 1905 paper on special relativity.

True, but the special theory of relativity isn't that special. The equation that Einstein is famous for e=mc2 is Poincare's equation. He came up with it first. Einstein just reduced the equation as any algebra student could do.

At the very least Einstein does not deserve that much credit. His theory was based on the assumption the Michelson-Morley experiment was valid and there was no ether, but Einstein later came up with his own ether theory. It looks like Lorentz may have been right all along to not accept the Michelson-Morley experiment.

Run said Einstein claimed he didn't see Poincare's equation. If that is true I don't believe it. Einstein seems like a con man for saying that.

@humy said
No, it wasn't "stole". You don't understand how science works. It it perfectly legitimate in science to build on top of other peoples work and scientists rightly do that all the time. He NEVER STOLE credit for Lorentz maths. So that's just BS. You used other peoples maths; so what? That's not stealing credit and is just fine.

In addition, as I already said before relativity " ...[text shortened]... n EITHER ether theories. So, NO, this later view of his does NOT indicate relativity could be wrong.

He stole Poincare's equation e=mc2. Poincare came up with it first and that wasn't used to build on top of anything. He just used it.

Einstein started out rejecting the ether altogether. The Michelson-Morley experiment supposedly proved there was no ether. Is the Michelson-Morley experiment valid or not? Einstein rejected the ether and later came up with an ether theory. What kind doesn't seem relevant. Ether is ether. Either the Michelson-Morley experiment disproved the ether or it didn't. Which is it?

What is the difference between Einstein's ether theory and Lorentz's ether theory?

@metal-brain said
He stole Poincare's equation e=mc2.

Actually, it's E = mc^2 and, No, he didn't steal it from anyone because he deduced it from scratch from the principle of relativity.
In other words, relativity is not based on E = mc^2 but rather E = mc^2 is based on relativity.
But all this is besides the point because Einstein was right for rejecting the original ether theory that contradicted relativity and the fact he latter agreed to a different kind of ether theory, not the older one, and one that didn't contradict relativity, is irrelavent to the fact that he was right all along for contradicting the older ether theory.

What is the difference between Einstein's ether theory and Lorentz's ether theory?

Lets suppose just for the sake of argument there is NO difference. That would mean that that particular ether theory doesn't contradict relativity and he was still right for rejecting the OTHER and older ether theory that DOES contradict relativity and that means this is NOT evidence that relativity could be wrong nor he was wrong for rejecting the older ether theory, only possibly wrong (we still don't know if he was) but not necessarily wrong for rejecting the OTHER ether theory that does NOT contradict relativity. So your point is...?

@humy said
Actually, it's E = mc^2 and, No, he didn't steal it from anyone because he deduced it from scratch from the principle of relativity.
In other words, relativity is not based on E = mc^2 but rather E = mc^2 is based on relativity.
But all this is besides the point because Einstein was right for rejecting the original ether theory that contradicted relativity and the fact he latt ...[text shortened]... wrong for rejecting the OTHER ether theory that does NOT contradict relativity. So your point is...?

"he didn't steal it from anyone because he deduced it from scratch from the principle of relativity."

That is ridiculous. You cannot possibly know that. Poincare put out the equation 3 years before Einstein. I think you are making up crap again.

Aether is aether. Either the Michelson-Morley experiment is valid or it isn't. There is either a medium that can wave or there is not. You cannot say a different kind of aether is exempt from the Michelson-Morley experiment. If it is it cannot be called an aether.

Einstein contradicted himself by acknowledging the Aether. His whole theory of SR was based on the Aether not existing. Furthermore, you have not answered my questions. What is the difference between Lorentz's aether theory and Einstein's aether theory? You don't know, do you?

@metal-brain said
"he didn't steal it from anyone because he deduced it from scratch from the principle of relativity."

That is ridiculous. You cannot possibly know that.

It would be ridiculous if I did NOT know that given I studied relativity, and that includes where it comes from, as university and passed with reasonable grades!
Hence I DO know where relativity comes from and therefore I also implicitly know where it did NOT come from.

Aether is aether.

No. Some ether theories contradict relativity while other don't. Einstein first rejected all of them but then latter decided on one that does not contradict his theory of relativity while always continuing to reject all those ether theories that do contradict his theory of relativity. -So exactly where is the indication that relativity might be wrong there?

@humy said
It would be ridiculous if I did NOT know that given I studied relativity, and that includes where it comes from, as university and passed with reasonable grades!
Hence I DO know where relativity comes from and therefore I also implicitly know where it did NOT come from.

Aether is aether.

No. Some ether theories contradict relativity while other don't. Einstei ...[text shortened]... his theory of relativity. -So exactly where is the indication that relativity might be wrong there?

Then the Michelson-Morley experiment is not valid. It did not prove an aether does not exist.
Newton had an aether theory that was pretty good at that time. I think he gave up on it because it was impossible for him to prove, but he was ahead of his time. He was far more of a genius than Einstein. In the end Einstein had to admit there is an aether so he made up his own aether theory in an attempt to salvage the theories he was famous for. It was just another of his con jobs, but at least he didn't attempt to call it something other than the aether. Then again, a medium is a medium. How could he deny it?

Define aether.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophi%C3%A6_Naturalis_Principia_Mathematica

@metal-brain said
Then the Michelson-Morley experiment is not valid. It did not prove an aether does not exist.

Wrong. The Michelson-Morley experiment is valid and it did prove an aether of the kind that contradicts relativity does not exist. That result obviously doesn't mean a different kind of ether cannot exist of a type that does NOT contradicts relativity.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelson%E2%80%93Morley_experiment
"...
The Michelson–Morley experiment was an attempt to detect the existence of aether, a supposed medium permeating space that was thought to be the carrier of light waves. ... It compared the speed of light in perpendicular directions, in an attempt to detect the relative motion of matter through the stationary luminiferous aether ('aether wind' ). The result was negative, in that Michelson and Morley found no significant difference between the speed of light in the direction of movement through the presumed aether, and the speed at right angles. This result is generally considered to be the first strong evidence against the then-prevalent aether theory, and initiated a line of research that eventually led to special relativity, which rules out a stationary aether. Of this experiment, Einstein wrote, "If the Michelson–Morley experiment had not brought us into serious embarrassment, no one would have regarded the relativity theory as a (halfway) redemption."

So, that experiment ruled out stationary aether which is NOT the same kind of ether Einstein came to later believe exists because THAT kind of ether Einstein came to later believe exists does NOT contradict relativity.
So no evidence there that relativity might credibly be wrong!

Do you at last get it NOW?

@humy said
Wrong. The Michelson-Morley experiment is valid and it did prove an aether of the kind that contradicts relativity does not exist. That result obviously doesn't mean a different kind of ether cannot exist of a type that does NOT contradicts relativity.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelson%E2%80%93Morley_experiment
"...
The Michelson–Morley experiment was an attempt to dete ...[text shortened]... ivity.
So no evidence there that relativity might credibly be wrong!

Do you at last get it NOW?

Define aether.

Either it exists or it doesn't. It doesn't matter what kind. Aether is aether. A medium is a medium. Something must be waving.
The Michelson–Morley experiment did not disprove the existence of aether. That is what you are really saying.

@metal-brain said
Define aether.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aether_theories
"...In physics, aether theories (also known as ether theories) propose the existence of a medium, a space-filling substance or field, thought to be necessary as a transmission medium for the propagation of electromagnetic or gravitational forces. Since the development of special relativity, theories using a substantial aether fell out of use in modern physics, and are now joined by more abstract models.[1]

This early modern aether has little in common with the aether of classical elements from which the name was borrowed. The assorted theories embody the various conceptions of this medium and substance.
..."

...and that then goes on to explain the various ether theories.
If you REALLY want to know what those theories are, which I don't think you do, read the link above and the sublinks.

Either it exists or it doesn't.

Which kind?

It doesn't matter what kind.

Yes, it does because there are different kinds which contradict each other therefore they are mutually exclusive.

Aether is aether.

No, there are different mutually exclusive kinds.

The Michelson–Morley experiment did not disprove the existence of aether. That is what you are really saying.

Which one? It disproved the stationary type of ether but not the other types. That is what I am "really" saying.

Do you at last get it now?

@Metal-Brain

I heard that some people claimed Einstein stole a lot of stuff from Poincare and Lorentz so I looked into it and ran across this video.

Is it the case that many times theorists build upon or utilize other's ideas? But we make folk heroes out of them. This putting them on hero pedestals only causes someone to claim they "stole" ideas from other less celebrated people ?

@humy said
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aether_theories
"...In physics, aether theories (also known as ether theories) propose the existence of a medium, a space-filling substance or field, thought to be necessary as a transmission medium for the propagation of electromagnetic or gravitational forces. Since the development of special relativity, theories using a substantial aether fell o ...[text shortened]... e of ether but not the other types. That is what I am "really" saying.

Do you at last get it now?

"Which one? It disproved the stationary type of ether but not the other types. That is what I am "really" saying."

Is that what was said after the Michelson–Morley experiment was done, that it did not disprove all aether theories? I don't recall that ever being said until after aether theory was rehashed by Einstein.
After the Michelson–Morley experiment all aethers were considered dead. There were no exceptions considered at the time. For many years the aether was rejected altogether because of Einstein. The very idea was shunned upon.

What is the difference between the stationary type of ether and the other types? Why is one type acceptable and the others are not? Be specific.

@sonship said
@Metal-Brain

I heard that some people claimed Einstein stole a lot of stuff from Poincare and Lorentz so I looked into it and ran across this video.

Is it the case that many times theorists build upon or utilize other's ideas? But we make folk heroes out of them. This putting them on hero pedestals only causes someone to claim they "stole" ideas from other less celebrated people ?

Does Poincare deserve little credit? Lorentz?

Who deserves credit for the famous equation e=mc2? Isn't it Poincare? Why is Einstein deserving? He didn't come up with it. That was Poincare.

@metal-brain said
"Which one? It disproved the stationary type of ether but not the other types. That is what I am "really" saying."

Is that what was said after the Michelson–Morley experiment was done, that it did not disprove all aether theories?

Whether someone bothered to say it is irrelavent to the fact that its true. You make no point.