07 Nov 19
@sonship saidJust describing what I see has become of you, that's all. I'm not likening your beliefs to animal excrement or to germs being spread by an unclean dog or any of that kind of stuff. I am just a person with many Christian friends and colleagues telling you how you come across.
@FMF
Believe whatever you'd like FMF.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
If you are a Christian, if you are a believer, you have to open up your home for meeting. This is the first pattern at the initiation of the church life.
Rather than the cultish strong central control, Witness Lee encouraged Christians to open up their HOMES for meetings under their sovereignty.
Now he did not say every home meeting was a church. That is not what the New Testament shows. But meeting from house to house was blessed by God in addition to large congregational meetings.
Slanders here about the control of a cult leader are just that - slanders.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
07 Nov 19
Witness Lee did a lot to wean us off the expectation that Christians ALWAYS need a big speaker to give a sermon.
Now he steps on some toes because big pastor types will not appreciate him exposing this weakness in Christianity.
THE WAY OF TODAY’S CHRISTIANITY
The God-ordained way lasted a very short time. Right after the departure of all the apostles, this way began to wane and by the second century, according to my knowledge of church history, was altogether given up. The church by the second century picked up the congregational way according to the worldly way. As a result, they needed the big evangelists. They formed monasteries, ancient seminaries, to train people. Today Christianity’s existence depends upon the seminaries. Without the seminaries where could they get preachers? There would be no place to get the people trained to preach or teach. Then all these trained and taught preachers and teachers became the clergy. Then through clergy, hierarchy has been built up. This is today’s organized Christianity, and this is the organizational way of today’s Christianity. We all hate hierarchy and reject the clergy-laity system. But unconsciously even today to some extent clergy creeps in among us.
I am afraid that even while we have been talking about meeting in the homes, we do not have a meeting in every home but rather in a selected way. Some might have said already, “We don’t have that many big speakers, do we?” To have a big hall with a big number of people coming together with a big speaker is the Christianity way to worship God today. They do not see how the home meetings are needed. This God-invented way was altogether lost by Christianity.
From The Home Meetings—The Unique Way for the Increase and the Building Up of the Church
by Witness Lee
ISBN: 978-0-87083-231-4
https://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?n
07 Nov 19
@sonship saidIt's a question and you have dodged it. You look determined to add credence to the view of you I have shared in the last few posts.
@FMF
Is there any criticism of your cult by ex-members that is NOT slander?
Run with that FMF. Embrace that and believe that.
It will help your Agnostic Atheism, I'm sure.
It's a fair question that touches upon your intellectual integrity.
Is there any criticism of your cult by ex-members that is NOT slander?
07 Nov 19
@sonship saidHaven't you long since set out your stall here on this forum like a "big speaker" everyone "needs" and contantly giving "a sermon" and often lashing out at people who you feel step on your toes?
Witness Lee did a lot to wean us off the expectation that Christians ALWAYS need a big speaker to give a sermon.
08 Nov 19
@sonship saidIn the Church of England, and I assume the Anglican community generally, the priests are paid. They have to study. This way the preaching is actually quality controlled. There are lay preachers as well, in a supporting role, but they cannot give sermons (I think I'm right about this, but there's a risk I'm mistaken). The reason is simply that just because someone is a member of the Church does not guarantee that they may not have some sort of prejudice, and it can enter the sermon. There's an abuse category called Spiritual Abuse and the Church of England, although slow off the mark, is taking it seriously. Witness Lee's position on this is fraught with risks.
Witness Lee did a lot to wean us off the expectation that Christians ALWAYS need a big speaker to give a sermon.
Now he steps on some toes because big pastor types will not appreciate him exposing this weakness in Christianity.
[quote] THE WAY OF TODAY’S CHRISTIANITY
The God-ordained way lasted a very short time. Right after the departure of all the apostl ...[text shortened]... of the Church
by Witness Lee
ISBN: 978-0-87083-231-4
https://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?n
08 Nov 19
@sonship
Well I suppose people will draw their own conclusions as to why you refuse to answer, but let’s look logically at the options available...
- if you agreed with the statement of belief on your church’s website you would just say so. So it’s obvious that you don’t agree with it.
- but why won’t you state publicly that you don’t agree with it..let’s look at that.
- the statement about the “trinity “ as an explanation of the godhead is a fundamental doctrine which sites at the core of your church’s belief structure. You yourself frequently launch into lengthy (and in my opinion slightly creepy) expositions about your love the trinity doctrine.
- so why won’t you publicly state your disagreement about something spiritual which you feel passionate about?
- the answer: you are more concerned with your church and their opinion of you than you are about what you believe.
And that my friend, is cultism.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
08 Nov 19
@divegeester
Your innuendo is of course that I have not already answered.
Now why don't you convince Dariusz to come out and talk?
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
In the Church of England, and I assume the Anglican community generally, the priests are paid. They have to study. This way the preaching is actually quality controlled. There are lay preachers as well, in a supporting role, but they cannot give sermons (I think I'm right about this, but there's a risk I'm mistaken). The reason is simply that just because someone is a member of the Church does not guarantee that they may not have some sort of prejudice, and it can enter the sermon. There's an abuse category called Spiritual Abuse and the Church of England, although slow off the mark, is taking it seriously. Witness Lee's position on this is fraught with risks.
If we truly believe that Christ is the Head of the church we may pray and trust in His protection. If we feel that He is not really the Head we may be too afraid to allow the members of His body to prophesy one by one as Paul encourated.
That is that all may learn and all may be encourated.
Now there will still be times when more space needs to be allocated for a particular spiritual burden to be discharged. There will still be times when some lengthier edification needs to be administered to a larger gathering.
But Christianity has gone WAY over to the extreme of customary one person sermons which amount to stifling the function and growth of all the participants. I have been at places where someone/s excuse themselves that they cannot pray. They excuse themselves that they are not trained. They excuse themselves that that is the clergy's responsibility.
Is it not tragic that at thirty of attending a Christian gathering someone feels unqualified to even pray or speak a word about Christ? This is very sad. This is as if the members of the Lord's Body are paralyzed with atrophy and non-use.
We still benefit greatly from education in Greek or Hebrew or church history. But we have to come back to First Corinthians 14. You may ALL prophesy one by one that all may be encouraged. And we build up one another.
What is the "risk" of leaving thousands of believers perpetually unprepared to speak forth on behalf of God with confidence ? So I feel that God will guide us and even from mistakes we will learn.
The body must build up itself in love - that is each one part.
"But holding to truth in love, we may grow up into HIm in all things, who is the Head, Christ.
Out from whom all the Body, being joined together and being knit together through every joint of the rich supply and through the operation in the measure of each one part, causes the growth of the body unto the building up of itself in love." (Ephesians 4:15,16)
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
08 Nov 19
1 edit
There are lay preachers as well, in a supporting role, but they cannot give sermons (I think I'm right about this, but there's a risk I'm mistaken). The reason is simply that just because someone is a member of the Church does not guarantee that they may not have some sort of prejudice, and it can enter the sermon. There's an abuse category called Spiritual Abuse and the Church of England, although slow off the mark, is taking it seriously. Witness Lee's position on this is fraught with risks.
Do you feel that Paul's position is risky here ?
Pursue love, and desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy. (1 Cor. 14:1)
Desire earnestly, he says, that we may all speak for the Lord - speak forth in the Holy Spirit something exalting God. He says to desire this "especially".
But he who prophesies speaks BUILDING UP and ENCOURAGEMENT and consolation to men. (v.3)
If week after week we expect one man to have the answer to everyone's problems we will be disappointed and that person will be burned out. No gifted person, not matter HOW gifted, can replace the function of many speaking consolation and encouragement and building up to the participants present.
Now traditional Christianity has gone way over to the extreme and the clergy / laity system has rendered practically the whole Body immobilized and feeling unqualified to exercise the excellent gift of speaking forth for God.
Do you think Paul was being too risky?
I desire that you all speak in tongues, BUT ESPECIALLY that you would PROPHESY; and greater is he who prophesies than he who speaks in tongues, unless he interpret, that the church may receive building up. (v.5)
So we found the Lord leading us to not only have larger gatherings with an eloquent speaker who again and again speaks every week. But to have smaller group gatherings where each one is encouraged to first EXPERIENCE Christ during the week and then to prophesy - speaking forth their enjoyment of Christ that all may learn and all may be encouraged.
Paul said we should discern and we should function to speak forth for God.
There should be some who know the truth well and can help the participants not to introduce doctrinal errors. But with gentleness and encouragement we all must help each other to speak forth in the Holy Spirit some small edifying portion of life and truth.
"So also you, since you are zealous of spirits, seek that you may excel for the building up of the church." (v.12)
That is the practical local church. Context leans heavily to that being the practical local church in many meetings in which all participants are encouraged to experience Christ and to speak forth Christ to one another.
"For you may all prophesy one by one that all may learn and all may be encouraged. And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
For God is not a God of confusion but of peace." (1 Cor. 14:31-33)
08 Nov 19
@sonship saidThere is no innuendo, you haven’t answered and saying you have is A blatant untruth by you.
@divegeester
Your innuendo is of course that I have not already answered.
Besides, considering the answer only requires as a minimum, a “yes” or a “no”, it is still highly interesting that you won’t answer.
But we both know why, don’t we.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
08 Nov 19
3 edits
@divegeester
I have no dispute with that website. I think it is quite well written for the length and conciseness required. And it serves the purpose of speaking on behalf of the local churches.
I have no major disagreement with what the authors wrote there. It is quite adequate as a brief introduction to the Lord's recovery.
Anyone who needs further clarification and is not prejudiced like yourself, can EASILY do further research to hone in a little more on some aspect of what was written there.
What you have just read above is repetition of my position stated over approximately two years ago - 2017 or even earlier.