What do you have to loose?

@Rajk999

I think I told you before that this is a discussion forum. You make a point and you provide a supporting reference if necessary. It is not a Sunday School where you get to ask stupid questions.

Under your tag name you write "Enjoying".

When was the last time you were enjoying calling God your Abba Father is some form? I mean when did you enjoy calling out to God something like Paul writes here ?

"For you have not received a spirit of slavery bringing you into fear again, but you have received a spirit of sonship in which we cry, Abba, Father!

The Spirit Himself witnesses with our spirit that we are children of God." (Romans 8:15,16)

Did you recently or ever enjoy calling out to God as your "Abba" or your "Papa" in such an affectionate and intimate way ?

When did you last enjoy this kind of intimate relationship with God?

@dj2becker said
I’m sure if you could you would just delete parts of the Bible that don’t suit your doctrine. Did you even bother to read Galatians?

yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
Galatians 2:16

Your one verse doctrine is defective. Read another verse.

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. (Galatians 2:16-17 KJV)

If you want to be justified by Christ through faith, then you cannot continue to sin. You church Christians promote a life of sin by proclaiming that sin is not counted against you and all is forgiven.

@rajk999 said
Your one verse doctrine is defective. Read another verse.

[i]Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified b ...[text shortened]... stians promote a life of sin by proclaiming that sin is not counted against you and all is forgiven.

A man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ. - True or False?

Is it just me, or is anyone else finding this particular kind of attempted/deflecting mockery [at least that's how it is coming across] by sonship a bit odd?

@dj2becker said
A man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ. - True or False?

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
(James 2:24 KJV)

True or False?

@fmf said
Is it just me, or is anyone else finding this particular kind of attempted/deflecting mockery [at least that's how it is coming across] by sonship a bit odd?

Its a sign of desperation because of his inability to defend his doctrine.

@rajk999 said
Its a sign of desperation because of his inability to defend his doctrine.

You are the claiming to preach Christ and denying the things Jesus said, like all the Word of God matters.

@rajk999 said
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
(James 2:24 KJV)

True or False?

True because faith without works is dead. True faith produces the fruits of the Spirit. Works done in the flesh get you nowhere.

@dj2becker said
True because faith without works is dead. True faith produces the fruits of the Spirit. Works done in the flesh get you nowhere.

These are not expressions in the bible
- true faith
- works done in the flesh.

These are fabricated expressions designed to support your nonsense doctrines.

Quote the bible exactly as it reads.

@rajk999 said
These are not expressions in the bible
- true faith
- works done in the flesh.

These are fabricated expressions designed to support your nonsense doctrines.

Quote the bible exactly as it reads.

For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.
James 2:26 ESV

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
Ephesians 2:8‭-‬10 ESV

Faith will always be followed by works. But it is God working through us yo do and to will.

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
Philippians 2:12‭-‬13 ESV

Then they said to him, "What must we do, to be doing the works of God?" Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent."
John 6:28‭-‬29 ESV

What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness." Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works: "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin."
Romans 4:1‭-‬8 ESV

For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.
Romans 6:14

but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, as it is written, "Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense; and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame."
Romans 9:31‭-‬33 ESV

@dj2becker said
For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.
James 2:26 ESV

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk ...[text shortened]... and a rock of offense; and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame."
Romans 9:31‭-‬33 ESV

So far we have these fabricated expressions/statements

1. Faith will always be followed by works.
2. True faith
3. Works done in the flesh.

Keep talking I will add some more.

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
(James 2:24 KJV)

True or False?

True. It is the word of God. So I must say that it is True.

The question is that HOW is it true?
And another question is - Does it make other statements of the same Scripture then NOT true?

Okay Rajk999. Its time for us to talk about James 2:24. But I don't think I can do this paradox justice in a little sound bite of one post.

So ... you and me on James 2:24? Do you have the patience for it?
As my custom is I can not promise to change your mind. I can only show you ...

WHY what is a problem to you about James 2:24 concerning "justification by faith" is NOT a problem to me. That is all I can promise you.

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
(James 2:24 KJV)

True or False?

True. How is it true?

I say Amen to James 2:24 with the proper understanding. It is part of the oracles of God.

First, is there not only a justification before God but also a justification before the world?

I say yes. There is a justification in which God approves of you according to His standard. But there is also often the need for the world who sees the believer to justify you, that they may say "Yes. it appears that this person is Christian".

My initial comment is that James is not contradicting Paul. And Paul is not contradicting James.

I think James is pursuing a problem of this kind:

" Yes, you say that you have faith in God. But the world cannot justify this. Before too many of the people of the world observing your life, YOU seem no different from them. Where is the evidence? They ask."

God wants the believer of course to be justified before Him according to His standard of righteousness. But He also wants that before the world you would be evidenced that you are one of His children. He certainly is not happy that you live worse then the ethical unbeliever.

So James is in pursuit of this dilemma. Is the faith that you have which justifies you before God also a faith that allows Him to justify you before the outsider observing your life?

If we say "James said faith without works is DEAD" it is ALSO true that Paul, the architect of the doctrine of Justification by faith, also said, in the section about sanctification in Romans - THAT the mind of the Christian SET on his fallen flesh instead of his regenerated spirit is death.

The audience is Christian believers, disciple of Jesus Christ, those who are saved -

"For the mind [of the Christian] set on the flesh is DEATH, but the mind set on the spirit is life and peace." (Romans 8:6) .

The DEATH here should not mean the stoppage of the beating heart. It means the DEATH of powerlessness towards living righteously, weakness in manifesting godliness, wretchedness in bondage to sinning. Weakness of not being able to live the Christian life in normality of overcoming and victory.

"The mind set on the flesh is DEATH ..." - Paul.

"Faith without works is DEAD ..." - James .

Can you see some agreement here between the two apostles ? Both are speaking to an audience of believers in Christ.