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Originally posted by hakima
.. if Jesus ever visited hell, it would likely cease to be hell...

IF? He did. I think many people consider helll to be the grave, and the Bible did say more than once that Christ was in hell.

Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance. Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
(Acts 2:27-32 KJV)

Originally posted by hakima
You asked if the God that I believe in CREATED a place of eternal damnation...otherwise known as hell...I think humans do a pretty good job of creating it themselves...so, again no-- I don't think God created such a place. So far, the only thing that the verses presented here do is state that such a place exists...they don't name the creator of hell...which m ...[text shortened]... cease to be hell.

Eternal? Yes, of course if one chooses to remain there for the duration...

It seems irrational and illogical to "john 3:16" a few, and create a place of eternal suffering for the rest. I honestly don't get it.

Originally posted by hakima
Show me where it says in the bible that God CREATED hell and I will consider the translation.

Sorry replied to the wrong post

Originally posted by checkbaiter
If it is not already created, God will create it...
Prov 15:11
Hell and Destruction are before the Lord;
So how much more the hearts of the sons of men.
NKJV

Prov 23:14
You shall beat him with a rod,
And deliver his soul from hell.
NKJV

Matt 10:28-29
But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. 29
NKJV

Matt ...[text shortened]... ast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
NKJV

John 3:16

Originally posted by divegeester
How can there be something "eternal" outside of being with God?

Not to mention the horrendous thought that God would want people to suffer in an incinerator for eternity. It's terrible -how can you believe that the god of Jn 3:16 would want that? Once and for all Annihilation maybe, but to CREATE eternal burning!!

How can there be something "eternal" outside of being with God?

Deep theological question - in fact, foundational. Very well put.

Originally posted by vistesd
[b]How can there be something "eternal" outside of being with God?

Deep theological question - in fact, foundational. Very well put.[/b]

Yes, we talk of immortal souls though. Are they only conditionally immortal? Does the eternal torment necessarily have to involve fire? Surely if such a thing as God exists then eternal separation from them would be punishment enough (c.f. the passage in the Bible about wailing and gnashing of teeth).

This puts me in the no camp (although I'm an agnostic so divegeester may not want to count my vote).

In the old Pagan religion the underworld, which everyone apart from those who died in battle and were destined for Valhalla went to, had a part reserved for murderers, oath-breakers (i.e. perjury), and philanderers; Wodin put Loki's daughter Hell in charge of it. I think that the fire and brimstone conception had as much to do with the medieval imagination as anything else.

Originally posted by DeepThought
Yes, we talk of immortal souls though. Are they only conditionally immortal? Does the eternal torment necessarily have to involve fire? Surely if such a thing as God exists then eternal separation from them would be punishment enough (c.f. the passage in the Bible about wailing and gnashing of teeth).

This puts me in the no camp (although I'm an ag ...[text shortened]... fire and brimstone conception had as much to do with the medieval imagination as anything else.

I am not always sure what people mean by “soul”. For example, soul could be a term for the complete being, rather than some added, or pre-existing, “substance”.

Without going into detail - which would involve not only an exposition, but my own “take” as a non-dualist - in Judaism there are four levels of “soul” (sometimes five): nephesh, ruach, neshamah and chayah (and the fifth is yichud - “oneness” or “unity” ). You can take these psychologically or metaphorically or mythologically, if you wish - rather than ontologically.

I will speak here from the framework of Jewish non-dualism (which may be the dominant theological stream in Judaism): The ultimate godhead is called ein sof - which literally means “no end”. Everything emanates or is manifest from this, through various levels or “worlds” (or sequential universes, whatever) called, depending on the model, olamim (worlds) and/or sephirot (spheres of emanation). There was never ein sof (god) on the one hand, and some undefined “nothingness” (whatever that could possibly mean!) on the other.

So, in this understanding, there can be nothing “eternal” outside of god. Nor can there be anything separate from the ground of being, ein sof.

With that said, the lower levels of being (“soul” ) - i.e., nephesh and ruach - can be plagued, as it were, by an illusion of separateness. But each of these “levels” could better be described, metaphorically, as “layers of a flame” - from the outermost to the innermost, in the order given above. And only the two outermost “layers” - nephesh and ruach - are able to behave as if separate from the ground of being.

In the Jewish morning prayers is the following statement: Elohai neshamah sh’n’tatabi tehorah he - which means “My god the soul you have given me, she is pure”. This refers to the layer of neshamah (and deeper, of course). No matter if we are able to “defile” the outermost layers (or lower levels), our innermost self - beginning with neshamah - is too connected, too close, to the godhead to be sullied. Not that we are able to keep it unsullied - it cannot be sullied.

Judaism has no central doctrine of the “after-life”. The Hebrew phrase - Ha’olam ha’ba, “the world to come” - is interpreted in various ways. Various scriptural references and various rabbis have various views on the subject.

But Jewish non-dualism (again, a main - if not the main - Jewish theology), like all non-dualistic systems, would say that ontological separateness is ultimately an illusion. And hence that a notion of “eternal separateness” - or even, perhaps, ultimate separateness - from the ground and source of being (the ontological abyss), ein sof or YHVH is strictly impossible.

There are also Christian non-dualists (famously: Meister Eckhart). Dualism (in this case monotheistic dualism) and non-dualism are the foundational divide in religious philosophy. The Hebrew Scriptures can be read, in various places, to support either one.

Originally posted by divegeester
How can there be something "eternal" outside of being with God?

Not to mention the horrendous thought that God would want people to suffer in an incinerator for eternity. It's terrible -how can you believe that the god of Jn 3:16 would want that? Once and for all Annihilation maybe, but to CREATE eternal burning!!

Originally posted by divegeester
How can there be something "eternal" outside of being with God?

"God Is Eternal "The Eternity of God: God always existed. He is eternal. We as human beings live in time and space, it is linear. Eternity if described in human terms stretches backwards and forwards with no end. Eternity is of perpetual duration neither having beginning nor end. This is where God dwells in. The high and lofty one who dwells in eternity. this is also how God sees things, before He created one thing he knew the beginning from the end of all things..."

"God is infinite having no cause. All that is finite and created have a cause. The Bible teaches that God is eternal (Deut. 33:27). “ From everlasting to everlasting you are God” (Ps.90:2). So all that is infinite is unlimited and must be the cause of all things. He cannot give a beginning to Himself, if he had a beginning no matter how far back in time or eternity he could no longer be infinite, He could no longer possess the highest degree of perfection..."

"God always existed, He is eternal. This is a inconceivable thought or concept to fully grasp.We who live in time and space do not have the ability to grasp fully what eternity is as we are limited in knowledge. To best describe eternity, it stretches backwards and forwards with no end. Eternity is of perpetual duration neither having beginning nor end. He, God being eternal is before all things and will be also afterward. This is where God dwells in, the high and lofty one who dwells in eternity." http://www.letusreason.org/Apolo5.html (to be continued)

Originally posted by vistesd
I am not always sure what people mean by “soul”. For example, soul could be a term for the complete being, rather than some added, or pre-existing, “substance”.

Without going into detail - which would involve not only an exposition, but my own “take” as a non-dualist - in Judaism there are four levels of “soul” (sometimes five): [i]nephesh, ruach, nes ...[text shortened]... igious philosophy. The Hebrew Scriptures can be read, in various places, to support either one.

I agree it's unclear what people mean by soul. Personally I always assumed it was essentially an identical concept to the mind, there was some discussion about this in sonhouse's thread "What happens to God when we become extinct". The distinction is old as the etymology for both words goes back to Old English, rather than one being from a Saxon word and the other from Norman French as often happens in English when there are two similar concepts. Soul tends to have exclusively emotional connotations whereas mind connotes logic and memory.

Your post was another very interesting one, but left me wondering about the problem of evil.

Originally posted by DeepThought
I agree it's unclear what people mean by soul. Personally I always assumed it was essentially an identical concept to the mind, there was some discussion about this in sonhouse's thread "What happens to God when we become extinct". The distinction is old as the etymology for both words goes back to Old English, rather than one being from a Saxon word a ...[text shortened]...

Your post was another very interesting one, but left me wondering about the problem of evil.

The "problem of evil" has several aspects, e.g.: moral or natural evil; (moral) evil as ultimately willful transgression or error due to illusion or (psychological) illness/ailment, in need, not of punishment, but (divine?) cure.

The English word evil (just like the Hebrew word ra) meant anything that you would consider "bad" - not just morally, but "that was an evil meal", "what is that evil smell?", etc.. That is, whatever I might find unpleasant, unworthy, negative in any way.

Absent a supernatural personal entity - "god" in the monotheistic sense,say - there is no "problem"; there are just things that we recognize variously as good or bad - including, but not limited to, morally. And the question of how we identify moral good and evil (which has been discussed on here many times, from both theistic and nontheistic points of view).

None of that is an answer - just a further (un)weaving of the question . . .

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Originally posted by divegeester
How can there be something "eternal" outside of being with God?

"God Is Eternal "The Eternity of God: God always existed. He is eternal. We as human beings live in time and space, it is linear. Eternity if described in human terms stretches backwards and forwards with no end. Eternity is of perpetual durat ...[text shortened]... high and lofty one who dwells in eternity." http://www.letusreason.org/Apolo5.html (to be continued)

Originally posted by divegeester
How can there be something "eternal" outside of being with God?

Not to mention the horrendous thought that God would want people to suffer in an incinerator for eternity. It's terrible -how can you believe that the god of Jn 3:16 would want that? Once and for all Annihilation maybe, but to CREATE eternal burning!!
____________________________________________________________

At the end of the Millennium, Jesus Christ in His majesty will preside over the Great White Throne of the Last Judgment. All unbelievers of all time will stand before Him individually for their works to be judged, because they have refused to accept the Grace Gift of Christ as their Savior. He will sentence them to join Satan and the fallen angels in the Lake of Fire, to be separated from God forever. "And death and Hades were thrown into the Lake of Fire. This is the second death, the Lake of Fire. And if anyone's name was not written in the Book of Life, he was thrown into the Lake of Fire." (Revelation 20:14-15)

All unbelievers and believers in Christ will be divided into two categories for eternity: "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." (John 3:18) "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." (John 3:38) "The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance [a change of mind about Christ]." (2 Peter 3:9)

By reason of individual negative volition during their lives on earth, they will suffer eternal judgment. (Revelation 20:15; 21:8) Those who believed in Him will enjoy eternal life with God in heaven for eternity. (Revelation 21:3-4; 22:4-5). "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten [uniquely born] Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life." (John 3:16) The love of God cannot be separated from His attributes of Righteousness [His perfect standard] and His Perfect Justice which make up His Holiness or Divine Integrity. God's love is part of His perfect, absolute existence and can never be separated from His other attributes. God's love is infinite and immutable; never sentimental.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Originally posted by divegeester
How can there be something "eternal" outside of being with God?

[b]"God Is Eternal "The Eternity of God: God always existed. He is eternal. We as human beings live in time and space, it is linear. Eternity if described in human terms stretches backwards and forwards with no end. Eternity is of perpetual du ...[text shortened]... and lofty one who dwells in eternity." http://www.letusreason.org/Apolo5.html (to be continued)[/b]

Why are you explaining the eternal aspects of God, when what I asked was:

how can there be anything eternal outside of God?

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Originally posted by divegeester
How can there be something "eternal" outside of being with God?

Not to mention the horrendous thought that God would want people to suffer in an incinerator for eternity. It's terrible -how can you believe that the god of Jn 3:16 would want that? Once and for all Annihilation maybe, but to CREATE eternal burni ...[text shortened]... be separated from His other attributes. God's love is infinite and immutable; never sentimental.

I understand what you believe and the source of what you believe, there really is no need to keep repeating it to me.

My challenge to remains twofold:

1) the confused morality of your interpretation of God's righteousness expressed in John 3:16 and your claim of the same God creating the suffering of eternal flesh melting incineration.

2) how anything can be eternal outside of God.

Originally posted by divegeester
Why are you explaining the eternal aspects of God, when what I asked was:

how can there be anything eternal outside of God?

"God is infinite having no cause. All that is finite and created have a cause. The Bible teaches that God is eternal (Deut. 33:27). “ From everlasting to everlasting you are God” (Ps.90:2). To be certain we both understand that God is eternal;
as well as the fact that when God creates a human soul at birth in His likeness, that soul isn't disposable. That's why.

Originally posted by divegeester
I understand what you believe and the source of what you believe, there really is no need to keep repeating it to me.

My challenge to remains twofold:

1) the confused morality of your interpretation of God's righteousness expressed in John 3:16 and your claim of the same God creating the suffering of eternal flesh melting incineration.

2) how anything can be eternal outside of God.

Originally posted by divegeester
"I understand what you believe and the source of what you believe, there really is no need to keep repeating it to me.

My challenge to remains twofold:

1) the confused morality of your interpretation of God's righteousness expressed in John 3:16 and your claim of the same God creating the suffering of eternal flesh melting incineration. [God is Just which means He's fair. If in His Scales of Justice decisions for Christ result in eternal happiness with God, doesn't it stand to reason that decisions against Christ, His uniquely born Son, will result in eternal suffering separated from God? God is love; He has offered a grace gift. Reject it at your peril.]

2) how anything can be eternal outside of God." [Please see reply above.]