@fmf said
I don't think this discussion has been pointless because I think I have laid out my stance pretty well and, presumably, you think you have done the same with your stance.

I think your stance is pointless. Tell me what the point is of discussing beliefs within a philosophical framework where none of them can be true.

@dj2becker said
I think your stance is pointless. Tell me what the point is of discussing beliefs within a philosophical framework where none of them can be true.

That's OK. You can speculate all you want about whether your beliefs regarding supernatural things "can be true". I do so too, of course.

You can say you're placing them within whatever "philosophical framework" you want. You can question the "logic" of anything that deviates from it.

You can claim you are "bound by absolute truth" if you want. You can assert that you are being "objective". It's OK.

You can characterize disagreement with your stance in any way you want. If you find my stance pointless, so be it.

@dj2becker said
Your argument self destructs if you’re just speculating that it’s unprovable and unknowable. You can’t know that to be true, so your argument is moot.

Can we know God, the Word of God says if we seek Him with all of our hearts we will find Him. Some say He is not real, others say He may be real but we cannot know. What do we do, because there are choices does that mean we cannot know, or only those that don't seek Him with all of their hearts will not know?

@kellyjay said
Can we know God, the Word of God says if we seek Him with all of our hearts we will find Him. Some say He is not real, others say He may be real but we cannot know. What do we do, because there are choices does that mean we cannot know, or only those that don't seek Him with all of their hearts will not know?

You are making my point for me. There is no way anyone can describe this seeking "Him" with "all our hearts" and "we will find Him" stuff as "objective". Speculation and aspiration and faith of this kind are all in the realm of subjectivity. It does not matter how certain and sincere you are in your beliefs regarding supernatural and "divine" things, you are being subjective and not objective.

@kellyjay said
Can we know God.. What do we do, because there are choices does that mean we cannot know, or only those that don't seek Him with all of their hearts will not know?

You are perfectly entitled to stick with the notion that everyone will "know" for sure that you were "right" all along once their lives end.

But you surely don't seriously think that such assertions render your perspective "objective", right?

@fmf said
You are making my point for me. There is no way anyone can describe this seeking "Him" with "all our hearts" and "we will find Him" stuff as "objective". Speculation and aspiration and faith of this kind are all in the realm of subjectivity. It does not matter how certain and sincere you are in your beliefs regarding supernatural and "divine" things, you are being subjective and not objective.

There is no way anyone can describe this seeking "Him" with "all our hearts" and "we will find Him" stuff as "objective".

How do you know that to be absolutely true?

@dj2becker said
There is no way anyone can describe this seeking "Him" with "all our hearts" and "we will find Him" stuff as "objective".

How do you know that to be absolutely true?

It's my subjective opinion. If, in your subjective opinion, KellyJay's subjective opinion is true, then that's OK. All we are doing here is sharing our personal opinions about supernatural things.

@fmf said
It's my subjective opinion. If, in your subjective opinion, KellyJay's subjective opinion is true, then that's OK. All we are doing here is sharing our personal opinions about supernatural things.

How do you know that your subjective opinions are true?

@dj2becker said
How do you know that your subjective opinions are true?

They are just my personal beliefs based on my speculation regarding supernatural things. The same goes for your beliefs regarding those things. You and I are both merely sharing our personal opinions about what we believe to be true. As for the use of the word "know" in this context, I have already addressed that at least twice on this thread.

@dj2becker said
How do you know that your subjective opinions are true?

He doesn't know if he is missing something or not!
If God actually enters into people's lives where it isn't subjective, all bets are off.

@kellyjay said
If God actually enters into people's lives where it isn't subjective, all bets are off.

What on earth are you talking about?

@kellyjay said
He doesn't know if he is missing something or not!
If God actually enters into people's lives where it isn't subjective, all bets are off.

Gosh. Are you saying something disagreeing with me - and meant for me - but addressing it to someone who agrees with you? What's the matter with you?

@kellyjay said
If God actually enters into people's lives where it isn't subjective, all bets are off.

You think subscribing to certain religious beliefs and doctrines turns your personal opinions about supernatural causality into objective truths?

@fmf said
They are just my personal beliefs based on my speculation regarding supernatural things. The same goes for your beliefs regarding those things. You and I are both merely sharing our personal opinions about what we believe to be true. As for the use of the word "know" in this context, I have already addressed that at least twice on this thread.

What you are implying is that it’s impossible to have any real certainty about spiritual matters which is self defeating because that means you can’t have any real certainty about other people not having real certainty about spiritual matters.

@fmf said
Gosh. Are you saying something disagreeing with me - and meant for me - but addressing it to someone who agrees with you? What's the matter with you?

If kellyjay replies to one of your or my posts he will turn into a pillar of salt.

That’s a literal “pillar” but the “salt” is metaphorical.