The Wisdom of Witness Lee

@Ghost-of-a-Duke

Six months on I remain perplexed that you tie your flag to someone who thinks other Christians are in an organization of Satan.

More than six months ago, in fact centuries ago, the Bible predicted that there would be substantial apostasy from truth by many believers.

There should be no surprise that we Christians should be wary of this concerning ourselves and others.

And now since you have nothing to say about the positive aspect of what it means to BUILD the church, I think it is pointless to obsess only on the negative.

You don't have a clue about the nature of spiritual warfare. And the whole Old Testament history of Israel being captured by Babylon has no meaningful significance for you.

In the meantime, I know every single person born of God and become my brother or sister in Christ will be everlasting constituents of the eternal New Jerusalem, temporary setbacks not withstanding.

@sonship said
@Ghost-of-a-Duke

Six months on I remain perplexed that you tie your flag to someone who thinks other Christians are in an organization of Satan.

More than six months ago, in fact centuries ago, the Bible predicted that there would be substantial apostasy from truth by many believers.

There should be no surprise that we Christians should b ...[text shortened]... will be everlasting constituents of the eternal New Jerusalem, temporary setbacks not withstanding.

Of course, revelation tells us that those in an organization of Satan (his followers) are destined for hell. (Which accordingly to Lee includes Catholics and Protestants).

@Ghost-of-a-Duke

Of course, revelation tells us that those in an organization of Satan (his followers) are destined for hell. (Which accordingly to Lee includes Catholics and Protestants).

Wrong reading of the Bible. Wrong understanding of Witness Lee's ministry.

Jesus scolded His leading disciple calling him "Satan". See Matthew 16:22,23.

Okay Don't see it! It is still there.

Peter was usurped at that moment. Being temporarily usurped doesn't mean following Antichrist and Satan into the eternal fire.

Still stands what I wrote a post above -

In the meantime, I know every single person born of God and become my brother or sister in Christ will be everlasting constituents of the eternal New Jerusalem, temporary setbacks not withstanding.

@sonship said
@Ghost-of-a-Duke

Of course, revelation tells us that those in an organization of Satan (his followers) are destined for hell. (Which accordingly to Lee includes Catholics and Protestants).

Wrong reading of the Bible. Wrong understanding of Witness Lee's ministry.

Jesus scolded His leading disciple calling him "Satan". See [b]Matthew 16:22,23[/b ...[text shortened]... verlasting constituents of the eternal New Jerusalem, temporary setbacks not withstanding.
[/quote]

Okay, so you're finally conceding that Lee was talking nonsense by saying certain Christians were in an organization of Satan. (As clearly such Christians would 'not' be everlasting constituents of the eternal New Jerusalem and are indeed condemned to hell in the book of revelation).

@ghost-of-a-duke said
Another pearl of wisdom from Witness Lee:

"The sun signifies Christ...the moon can be considered a figure of the church, the wife of Christ...the stars first signify Christ…although Christ is the real sun, He does not appear as the sun during the present age of night. Rather, He shines as the bright Morning Star."

(The Recovery Version: Footnotes of Genesis)

not in this verse. i certainly would not use it

@ghost-of-a-duke said
I'm sure this bit of wisdom from Lee will make itself known to me eventually:


"The unique Creator, God, is triune, signified by the number three. Since the creation is represented before God by four living creatures (Revelation 4:6-9), the number four signifies creatures, especially man. Hence, three plus four means that God is added to the created man, and thus ...[text shortened]... eation and then in the new creation, the church."

(The Recovery Version: Footnotes of Revelation)

this is definitely wrong. is this Mormons teaching? just curious

@wolfgang59 said
Interesting. I thought the Morning Star (Venus) represented Lucifer in early Christianity?

it does, lol

@ghost-of-a-duke said
Yes, I was curious about that as well.


Edit: Am bringing this Lee quote across from the other thread so it's 'beauty' isn't lost:

'The Lord is not building His church in Christendom, which is composed of the apostate Roman Catholic Church and the Protestant denominations. This...is being fulfilled through the Lord's recovery, in which the building of the genui ...[text shortened]... oman Catholicism and Protestantism, as well as Judaism, all [have] become an organization of Satan.'

i love your sense of humor.

@Pudgenik

not in this verse. i certainly would not use it

In ministering spiritual life and truth from the Bible there is often a difference between giving an interpretation of passage and giving an application of one.

For spiritual edification a minister may provide a helpful application of a passage, yet not insisting that this is the one and only interpretation of the passage.

I am not a seminary student. But I am pretty sure a basic homiletics course would draw out that distinction.

@sonship said
@Pudgenik

not in this verse. i certainly would not use it

In ministering spiritual life and truth from the Bible there is often a difference between giving an interpretation of passage and giving an application of one.

For spiritual edification a minister may provide a helpful application of a passage, yet not insisting that this is t ...[text shortened]... a seminary student. But I am pretty sure a basic homiletics course would draw out that distinction.

So the following was only an application by Lee and not necessarily a sensible interpretation?

"The sun signifies Christ...the moon can be considered a figure of the church, the wife of Christ...the stars first signify Christ…although Christ is the real sun, He does not appear as the sun during the present age of night. Rather, He shines as the bright Morning Star."

@Ghost-of-a-Duke

So the following was only an application by Lee and not necessarily a sensible interpretation?

"The sun signifies Christ...the moon can be considered a figure of the church, the wife of Christ...the stars first signify Christ…although Christ is the real sun, He does not appear as the sun during the present age of night. Rather, He shines as the bright Morning Star."

I remember this message from early Genesis Life Study. found it then and now a very good exposition on the lights in the heavens in chapter one.

True to Witness Lee's lifelong burden to impress Christians with were the two major aspects of the Bible -

Christ as God incarnate
The church as God's building

So seeing Christ and the church in Genesis 1 was completely in accord with appreciating that the whole Bible concludes with Christ plus His Spouse (the church - the New Jerusalem).

So what we saw in Genesis 1 very wisely kept our eyes on the major theme of the rest of the whole divine revelation - God incarnate plus God's building to be His romantic other.

Having said that, I would add that there is plenty of justification in the rest of Scripture to draw allegorical references to the sun, moon, stars in the way he did.

The book is The Subjective Truths in the Holy Scriptures by Witness Lee.
The chapter is entitled Growth and Building.

And it is wisely relevant to a couple of thread arguments going on this week. [My bolding]

GROWING UP INTO THE HEAD, CHRIST,
IN ALL THINGS
This verse continues by saying: “We may grow up into Him in all things, who is the Head, Christ.” It is true that we are already in Christ and Christ is already in us, but you must know that in many things you are not in Christ; rather, you are still outside of Him, because there is not enough growth in your spiritual life. It is like having a cup of water into which you put some tea leaves. First, the water in the center of the cup becomes the color of tea, but the water at the perimeter has yet to have the color of tea. If you say that this cup of water does not have tea in it, you are wrong; however, there is still a lot of water that is not tea. In the same way, even though you have been saved and are in Christ, when you look at your practical living, you are almost the same as the Gentiles. Nothing of your practical living is in Christ; rather, everything is outside of Christ. This is because you have not grown up. This means that there is not enough divine element added into your being. Hence, you have not grown up into Christ in your every part.

Continued

"Morninghwatch" is a term for having some worship time with God in the first part of the day, like early in the morning.

What is truth? Or, what is reality? Truth is the Christ whom you have experienced. It should not be that only when we go to morning watch we begin to mean business and let our lips, tongue, words, and tone of voice grow up into Christ, but then when the morning-watch meeting is over, everything goes back into Adam. This is not truth; this is not the reality. We must hold to truth in love; we should hold to truth not only outside of morning watch but even in our dreams during our sleep. The Chinese have a saying that means “to indulge in wishful thinking,” but I tell the young people that you should not give your thoughts free rein; rather, you should grow up into Christ.

We need to grow up. Growing up is not of our own effort or work. Growing up is a matter of constantly opening our being to allow the divine element to continuously increase within us. It is only by the increase of the divine element that we can grow up in His element. The reason we are outside of Christ is that we lack the divine element. The divine element must be continually added into us so that we can grow up into the Head, Christ, in the divine element. When the divine element is added into a certain part of our being, we grow up into the Head, Christ, in that part. What is this for? It is for the building up of the church. Thus, we hold to truth in love so that we may grow up into Him in all things, who is the Head, Christ.

https://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?n

@pudgenik said
this is definitely wrong. is this Mormons teaching? just curious

I don't know if Witness Lee was inspired or not by Mormon teaching, but you are correct in acknowledging its erroneous nature.

The Holy Bible Recovery Version with footnotes by Witness Lee

https://www.recoveryversion.bible/

@sonship said
The Holy Bible Recovery Version with footnotes by Witness Lee

https://www.recoveryversion.bible/

It includes the 'wise' interpretation of Matthew 14:14-21:

"...these five loaves were barley loaves. Barley is a type of the resurrected Christ (Leviticus 23:10). Thus, the barley loaves signify Christ in resurrection as food to us. Loaves are of the vegetable life, signifying the generating aspect of Christ's life, whereas fish are of the animal life, signifying the redeeming aspect of Christ's life."

(The Recovery Version: Footnotes of Matthew).