The Wisdom of Witness Lee

@FMF

I would not phrase it as you would "Satanic symbol" .

For centuries though millions of people have considered that and OTHER physical buildings as "churches". That misunderstanding I feel is the result of the deception of God's enemy. As splendid as that historical building was it is not a church.

A New Testament church consists of living human beings.

No, I do not go out of my way to soon say offensive sounding things that might stumble a brother or sister in Christ.

@Ghost-of-a-Duke

It really is a shame you are unwilling to grapple honestly with the following:

I am not unwilling. I don't realistically think misunderstanding of some things can be cleared up in one of two posts.

The Bible records that Christ “loved the church and gave Himself up for her” (Eph. 5:25), not for any “ism,” whether “Judaism,” “Catholicism” or “Protestantism.” God did not save us for any “anity” or any “ism;” He saved us to be the Body of Christ. While concepts such as these are not universally held among believers today, neither are they entirely foreign. They certainly should not be foreign to those putting themselves forward as Christian scholars and Christian publishers.

From the co-workers at Contending For the Faith website. Copied without permission.

And they go on to write:

However, despite the letters of protest that we sent to Harvest House Publishers, in its Web postings Harvest House still defends its “chapter on the teachings of The Local Church” claiming that it “quotes and documents those teachings accurately.” In addition, their postings include a number of additional, similarly miscast, quotes describing variously “Christianity,” “Christendom” and the “isms” as: “dead religion,” “apostate,” “deformed and degraded,” “a human religion saturated with demonic and satanic things,” “spiritual fornication,” etc. (see also “Harvest House’s Hypocrisy Concerning Our Criticism of Christianity“ ).

Folks do some of your own research.
https://contendingforthefaith.org/en/misrepresentations-on-the-harvest-house-corporate-web-site/

A tactic often used by critics of Witness Lee is to attempt to portray him as teaching DIFFERENTLY from Watchman Nee.

The following quotes from Watchman Nee's The Glorious Church highlight that Nee said ONLY what comes out of Christ can be used to build up the Church.

Therefore, "the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept; and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof. And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man" (vv. 21-23). This one was Adam's help meet and the figure of the church in Ephesians 5. The Bible says very clearly that all of the things made of earth and not taken out of the body of Adam could not be his help meet. All the beasts of the field, the cattle, and the birds of the air were made of earth. They were not taken out of Adam; therefore, they could not be the help meet to Adam. We must remember that Eve was formed out of a rib taken from Adam; therefore, Eve was the constituent of Adam. This means that the church comes out of Christ. Only that which is out of Christ can be the church. Anything that is not of Christ is not the church.

THE CHURCH COMES OUT OF CHRIST
We should then ask, "What is the church?" The church is that part which is taken out of Christ. We need to see the two aspects of Adam, and then it will be easy for us to understand. On one hand, Adam stands merely as himself; on the other hand, he is a type. As far as Adam himself is concerned, he was made of clay. All natural men are made of clay. But Adam also typified Christ. The fact that Eve was made from Adam signifies that the church is made from Christ. Eve was made with Adam's rib. Since Eve came out from Adam, she was still Adam. Then what is the church? The church is another form of Christ, just as Eve was another form of Adam.

The church is just Christ. Oh, there are many people who think that the church is the coming together of the "people" who believe in the Lord and who are saved. No, this is not true! Then who constitutes the church? The church is only that portion which has been taken out of Christ. In other words, it is the man which God has made by using Christ as the material. It is not a man made of clay. The material of the church is Christ. Without Christ, the church has no position, no life, no living, and no existence. The church comes out of Christ.

https://www.ministrybooks.org/index.cfm

@sonship said
@FMF

I would not phrase it as you would "Satanic symbol" .

For centuries though millions of people have considered that and OTHER physical buildings as "churches". That misunderstanding I feel is the result of the deception of God's enemy. As splendid as that historical building was it is not a church.

A New Testament church consists of living human beings.

Do you see the fire in the Catholic Notre Dame cathedral as being the destruction of a religious building that represents or symbolizes the worship of "Satan"?

@sonship said
A tactic often used by critics of Witness Lee is to attempt to portray him as teaching DIFFERENTLY from Watchman Nee.

Why on earth would this be seen as something to be criticised?

@sonship said
No, I do not go out of my way to soon say offensive sounding things that might stumble a brother or sister in Christ.

You have called Christians in this community demon possessed and heretics. This being a message board populated by a varied bunch of ordinary people, that seems a bit like you are "going out of [your] way to say offensive sounding things" to "a brother or sister in Christ".

@FMF

You have called Christians in this community demon possessed and heretics. This being a message board populated by a varied bunch of ordinary people, that seems a bit like you are "going out of [your] way to say offensive sounding things" to "a brother or sister in Christ".

To anyone impressed with FMF's criticism here, I suggest this:

Go back and examine the statements written TO me that PRECEDED some of my harsher words. You have years of examples to examine.

I wager that you will find that some posters here expect to level any kind of nasty insult towards others with no response in kind.

Check WHAT WAS WRITTEN TO ME first which provoked a frank and often unflattering reply.

If someone wants to say that I do not ALWAYS turn a meek and mild other cheek, guilty as charged.

Check what they FIRST said to me to provoke a candid and frank retort.

@sonship said
@FMF

You have called Christians in this community demon possessed and heretics. This being a message board populated by a varied bunch of ordinary people, that seems a bit like you are "going out of [your] way to say offensive sounding things" to "a brother or sister in Christ".

To anyone impressed with FMF's criticism here, I suggest this:

Go back an ...[text shortened]... k, guilty as charged.

Check what they FIRST said to me to provoke a candid and frank retort.

The point being, unlike what you seemed to claim about yourself a few posts ago, you absolutely do seem to "go out of [your] way to say offensive sounding things" to "a brother or sister in Christ", quite often, and in a way that is much more starkly holier-than-thou than most other Christian posters here. You should reflect upon it.

@FMF

quite often, and in a way that is much more starkly holier-than-thou than most other Christian posters here.

What's wrong with being 'holier then thou' ?

You're the one not believing in a Holy Spirit Who comes and regenerates and indwells the saved man.

Rather than me boasting in being "holier then thou" you 're the one bragging like - "I'm not holy. There's no Holy God or Holy Scriptures and no Holy Savior."

You've been strutting around with a "Less holy then thou" attitude.

@sonship said
@FMF

quite often, and in a way that is much more starkly holier-than-thou than most other Christian posters here.

What's wrong with being 'holier then thou' ?

You're the one not believing in a Holy Spirit Who comes and regenerates and indwells the saved man.

Rather than me boasting in being "holier then thou" you 're the one bragging like - ...[text shortened]... o Holy Savior." [/i]

You've been strutting around with a "Less holy then thou" attitude.

I've asked you about evidence to back your claims that you have "Jesus flowing through" you and that you are "becoming like Jesus" but you always cower away in a flurry of deflections and dodges.

Some interesting positive testimonials:

I have a Bachelor of Law degree, a masters degree in Taxation, am a CPA, and have been an international tax advisor for many years. I have been a Christian since I was a young child. One thing that has impressed me most about the church is the understanding of our human spirit. The Bible says that man is created with three parts: the spirit, the soul, and the body (1 Thes. 5:23).

http://churchindunnloring.org/category/testimonies/

I would like to share with you a little about who I am and my experience in the churches and ministry of Witness Lee and Watchman Nee. I grew up in a Christian home where my parents were very active in various leadership roles in a fundamental denomination. Under the conviction of the Holy Spirit, I prayed to receive the Lord when I was eight years old. ...
Eventually, in my hunger for fellowship and prayer with like-minded Christians, I came across some believers attending my college who really enjoyed praying together regularly, singing to the Lord (even when it wasn’t during a church meeting), reading the Word together, and fellowshipping deeply. Over a period of months, I began to feel more at home with these brothers in Christ than with the ones in my denomination. I learned that they met as the church in Dallas and eventually, I also began to meet with them regularly and lost the desire to meet at my old denomination.
...
After all these years, I am still enjoying the riches of Christ and the rich ministry that has helped me to have a much better understanding of the Bible and know the God whom I love and serve. I pray the Lord will strengthen me to keep on seeking my dear Lord with all my heart and soul. I am a member of the Body of Christ, and one day I will be rejoicing together with all believers in oneness in the New Jerusalem as we praise and glorify our wonderful Savior King (Revelation 21:2, 9-10)!

Benjamin King

http://churchindunnloring.org/a-member-of-the-body-of-christ/

Jesus prayed in John 17:21, “That they all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us; that the world may believe that You have sent Me.” For the first 21 years of my life I lived in darkness and separation from God because I was ignorant of His love and salvation.
...
A few weeks later I went to a prayer meeting, and was deeply impressed that nearly everyone prayed for over an hour. Soon I attended a meeting on the Lord’s Day morning and was nourished by the Word of God. After that meeting I purchased a book by Watchman Nee, The Orthodoxy of the Church, and two booklets by Witness Lee, Satan’s Strategy Against the Church and Pray-Reading the Word. These books were full of spiritual life and light! As I read The Orthodoxy of the Church, the Lord continually spoke to me to take the way of the church in localities, on the ground of oneness in the Lord. I had known about Christ being the one foundation for the church, but it was through that book that the Lord began to show me not only the spiritual reality of oneness, but also the practicality of it. After much prayer, I followed the leading of the Lord to begin to practice the oneness of the Body of Christ meeting in the church locally.

http://churchindunnloring.org/how-the-lord-led-me-into-the-oneness-of-his-body/

'Witness Lee taught a false gospel and Living Stream Ministries continues to propagate that false gospel throughout the world. They have successfully stopped many publishers from exposing them by bankrupting them in lawsuits. Perhaps in fear of facing such bankruptcy, Hank Hanegraaff led CRI on a multi-year journey to defend their teaching. If Hanegraaff and the others involved at CRI honestly believe that Witness Lee and Living Stream Ministries teach “sound orthodoxy” then they are just as damned as Lee.'

Brandon Adams (Contrast).

@Ghost-of-a-Duke

Statement from Fuller Theological Seminary

[my bolding]
https://contendingforthefaith.org/statement-from-fuller-theological-seminary/

Sample portion of intro:

In late 2004 representatives of Living Stream Ministry (LSM) and the local churches entered into dialogue with a group of three distinguished faculty members at Fuller Theological Seminary—President Richard Mouw, Dean of Theology Howard Loewen, and Professor of Systematic Theology Veli-Matti Kärkkäinen. The Fuller panel of scholars performed an extensive and careful review and evaluation of our teachings and practices.

Of their meetings with the representatives of LSM and the local churches they said, “Our times together were characterized by sincere, open, transparent, and unrestricted dialog.” As a result of their review, they issued a statement (also reproduced in this book) in which they concluded “that the teachings and practices of the local churches and its members represent the genuine, historical, biblical Christian faith in every essential aspect.” They also reported finding “a great disparity between the perceptions that have been generated in some circles concerning the teachings of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee and the actual teachings found in their writings.”

Read more at https://contendingforthefaith.org/en/statement-from-fuller-theological-seminary/

'These people have confirmed they’re truly great hypocrites. Their organization exists on the premise that they represent the “recovery” of the original Church of God, which automatically implies all other churches are apostate, missing the mark.'


www.thepathoftruth.com/false-teachers/witness-lee.htm

@Ghost-of-a-Duke

'These people have confirmed they’re truly great hypocrites. Their organization exists on the premise that they represent the “recovery” of the original Church of God, which automatically implies all other churches are apostate, missing the mark.'

It implies this - When the NT speaks of plural "churches" what is the basis for distinguishing one church from another ?

Some of us want to come back to the only biblical distinction - locality.

However, in the last ten or more years of Brother Lee's ministry before departing he stressed small group meetings - "vital groups" and home meetings. That is because the building of the Body of Christ is best carried out in detail in smaller vital gatherings.

Not only so. But I distinctly remember Lee saying that where in Christianity they practiced "cell groups" it was profitable for encrease. AND, he said we in the local churches need to learn from the denominations which have fruitful encrease from the usage of cell groups.

This is humility people. This is saying, "We can learn from our brothers and sisters who do not meet in this way of local churches. This is genuine humility.

One of the brothers recently showed me a newspaper article which said that twenty years ago in Fort Lauderdale, Florida, a church was raised up with seventeen people. But now they have ten thousand members. In twenty years they increased from seventeen to ten thousand members. The article indicates that they did this by door-knocking, by visiting people in their homes.

In doing anything, if there is no profit or improvement, the way must be wrong. None of us should be self-content with the present numbers in the churches. Fifteen years ago the number of saints in Southern California was bigger than it is today. This lack of increase troubled me to such an extent that I turned my whole attention to this matter in October 1984. At that time I purposely went to Taiwan to study this matter. Gradually, I found out that our way is wrong. Christianity's way is wrong, and our way is also wrong because it has somewhat come out of their way. Although some improvements have been made, our way has been and still is in the same category as that of Christianity's. In the matter of the gospel preaching, there is not much difference between our way and theirs.

https://www.ministrybooks.org/SearchMinBooksDsp.cfm?id=0B1905DBF2