29 Oct '18 16:03>
@wolfgang59 saidIpswich Town, of course.
You may as well ask "which football fans support the correct team?"
@wolfgang59 saidIpswich Town, of course.
You may as well ask "which football fans support the correct team?"
Look at the huge number of moral systems mankind has had throughout his history.
Cannibalism has been accepted and condemned. Slavery, human sacrifice, the killing of opponents, vast inequalities in wealth, torture, and a host of other things that we now view as "bad" have been either been tolerated or encouraged.
We are foundering around as best we can, without guidance, in conditions that are specific to different eras.
There are no doubt a host of issues we now accept that future generations will look back upon and shake their heads in disbelief that we would willingly accept such barbarisms.
I do not claim to "know" whether or not there is a god, but the universe behaves exactly as you would expect if there were none.
Because I see no evidence that god exists. And since human morality obviously changes over time, we would have to conclude that your hypothetical god either has no influence on that morality, or that his own morality is likewise changeable.
@rwingett saidSome have very convincingly rebutted that, behind the differing expressions, there is actually a core of universal moral principles that all cultures really do live by. Even if this is not the case, however, the objection is not logically valid. Many cultures around the world have fundamentally different ideas of why people get sick, but that does not make germ theory invalid nor render the cause of sickness to be a mere social construct. The fact that many cultures today still do not believe in germs, and that most cultures throughout history did not, doesn't change the fact that germs exist and that they cause sickness. In the same way, just because a bunch of cultures get morality partially or even wholly wrong does not mean that morality does not exist. Morality is very real, and most all of us are actually quite sure of it. This is the rational position.
Because I see no evidence that god exists. And since human morality obviously changes over time, we would have to conclude that your hypothetical god either has no influence on that morality, or that his own morality is likewise changeable.
@dj2becker saidBesides the Christian Bible, what other sources for these "objective moral values" are there?
The moral argument for the existence of God is the argument that God is necessary for objective moral values or duties to exist. Since objective moral values and duties do exist, God must also exist. The argument is not claiming that people who don't believe in God cannot do kind things or that atheists are generally morally worse people that religious people are. The argum ...[text shortened]... a real standard of good does exist to make "doing good" possible.
https://carm.org/moral-argument
@dj2becker saidPresuppositionalists often use this.
The moral argument for the existence of God is the argument that God is necessary for objective moral values or duties to exist. Since objective moral values and duties do exist, God must also exist. The argument is not claiming that people who don't believe in God cannot do kind things or that atheists are generally morally worse people that religious people are. The argum ...[text shortened]... a real standard of good does exist to make "doing good" possible.
https://carm.org/moral-argument
@philokalia saidYou are being subjective here, which - don't misunderstand me - is totally fine.
The world simply ceases to make sense when God is taken out of the equation, right. One can no longer have a sensible discussion or understanding of the world without the assumption that there is an objective truth or reality.
@fmf saidBut when a rapist is being subjective in their moral assessment of rape suddenly it’s not fine and we all know why.
You are being subjective here, which - don't misunderstand me - is totally fine.
@sonship saidThere is no evidence that cannibals eat their victims to obtain their “moral higher code”.
Cannibalism has been accepted and condemned. Slavery, human sacrifice, the killing of opponents, vast inequalities in wealth, torture, and a host of other things that we now view as "bad" have been either been tolerated or encouraged.
Let's take cannibalism. I have heard that in some societies cannibalism is a way for the eater to ingest the positive cha ...[text shortened]... diversity of moral codes does not argue for there being no transcendent standard of moral goodness.
@sonship saidWhat is the evidence that YOU are?Because I see no evidence that god exists.
What is the evidence that you are without a vested interest in the matter? What is the evidence that you are completely objective about God's existence?
@sonship saidIt’s a pity that you are unable to extrapolate quality thinking like this to your own entrenched dogma about evil, hell and eternal torture.
It has been argued that evil is not a thing God created but is the absence of good.