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-Removed-Take someone charged with murder for example.
The family of the accused murderer will probably want the judge to be lenient with him, as much as possible. Conversely, the family of the murdered victim will probably want the death penalty or at the bare minimum, they will want life in prison.
Of course, the murderer probably has justifications for their murder they run round there head. Maybe he was a hit man and it was "just business". Maybe the victim cheated and stole from them, adding validity to their act in their own twisted sin ridden minds.
Hell, just look at the Nazi's. They told themselves that the Jewish people were vermin and a plague upon mankind. In their own warped little minds, they were doing mankind a favor.
I find that sins that people generally don't think is a "big deal", are sins they commit. Conversely, sins that they think is a big deal they have never done. Murder is another excellent example. The second time one murders is probably not as big a deal as the first. Now in the mind of God who has no sin, all sin is equally repugnant and carries with it the charge of death, but we simply don't see it that way. After all, it's just taking a bite out of an apple. What is the harm?
We are all hopelessly biased based upon our personal experiences and likes and dislikes coupled with the inability to know all the facts how those facts relate to what is "good" or "bad" for creation.
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyActually, the best alternative (not the only one of course as suggested in your false dichotomy), is to use the methodology developed over the last few thousand years called 'science'. It has proven time and again that it is the only reliable way to learn new stuff and it beats any other methodology when it comes to successes. You can thank the study of science and not the word of God for the computer in front of you and the internet you are using to communicate with, and even your very life which has been sustained by modern medicine and not prayer.
Thought for Today:
We know what we know but don't know what it is that we don't know, which is why we become serious students of the Word of God. The alternative is to place temporary opinion bandages on permanent self inflicted wounds from human viewpoint and ignorance.
Originally posted by twhiteheadWhat have you learned recently about God, His plan for the human race and our options for eternity?
Actually, the best alternative (not the only one of course as suggested in your false dichotomy), is to use the methodology developed over the last few thousand years called 'science'. It has proven time and again that it is the only reliable way to learn new stuff and it beats any other methodology when it comes to successes. You can thank the study of s ...[text shortened]... nicate with, and even your very life which has been sustained by modern medicine and not prayer.
Originally posted by twhitehead
I see you are uninterested I answering my question. Next time, consider not being so rude and just politely decline to answer.
Nothing. What have you learned recently about things that actually exist?
"[T]hings that actually exist". Some would consider this as uninterested in spiritual matters and possibly equally curt or rude.
Next time consider how your own tone comes across to believers in God who of course acknowledge God's existence.
The implication is that you are speaking to a deluded person who cannot ascertain your allegedly obvious atheistic viewpoint of reality.
Originally posted by sonshipYou are not following apparently. He asked me - a known atheist - what I had learned about something that he knows perfectly well I do not believe exists. My response was to be expected and perfectly reasonable.
"[T]hings that actually exist". Some would consider this as uninterested in spiritual matters and possibly equally curt or rude.
Also keep in mind his original 'thought' had to do with what we know and what we can know.
And what are 'spiritual matters' by the way? And do you share Grampies opinion that science cannot be used to obtain knowledge of spiritual matters?
Can anyone suggest a reliable method for obtaining knowledge other than science? By reliable I mean the following:
Give 100 reasonably intelligent people the details of the methodology. Separate them from each other and send them off to go and obtain said knowledge. When they get back with the knowledge, the majority agree on the findings, and those that do not are soon convinced via rational argument.
Would Grampies suggestion of becoming a serious students of the Word of God pass the above test? If so, can we have more details as to how one does this and has anyone ever done it?
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Originally posted by twhitehead
You are not following apparently. He asked me - a known atheist - what I had learned about something that he knows perfectly well I do not believe exists. My response was to be expected and perfectly reasonable.
Also keep in mind his original 'thought' had to do with what we know and what we can know.
And what are 'spiritual matters' by the way? And ...[text shortened]... you share Grampies opinion that science cannot be used to obtain knowledge of spiritual matters?
And do you share Grampies opinion that science cannot be used to obtain knowledge of spiritual matters?
I would have to think about that.
The kind of spirituality that I am interested in has come about mainnly by prayer and trust and obedience and fellowship in love and coordination with others. Often with others with more experience, I obtain valuable spiritual guidance and truth.
I would be willing to bet that there are some areas in which God is so consistent and faithful that imperical examination might confirm that something is up. Though how to interpret that may differ with different viewers of the data.
For example, I have found that God is very consistent about faithful support in financial areas upon trust and cheerful giving of a portion of one's income to some work of God.
I do not mean that always every dollar given to His work is matched by one or more coming in. I do mean that things happen quite consistently when one is say, tithing, which supply, furnish support to live - sometimes money, sometimes in OTHER ways.
This is NOT an appeal to living a so-called "Prosperity Gospel" which I think is the decadent trend of some TV Evangelists.
I have heard a professional accountant say that he would stake his career on data concerning a Christian's giving, that by the BOOKS that person should not be able to make it. Yet somehow he does quite well, often very difficult to find out exactly HOW they are doing so well.
Now that tracking of that accounting practice is something "scientific" in a way. And while the examination might not render the examiner to say "God for sure is doing this." I do believe such an examination would surmise that SOMETHING was going on.
And my interpretation would be - Matthew 6:31-34 which you will now have to suffer through, Sorry -
Therefore do not be anxious, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, With what shall we be clothed?
For all these things the Gentiles are anxiously seeking. For your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things.
But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.
In my opinion - trusting in a consistent and cheerful way in the giving unto some good work in God's name, will consistently render the supplying of one's NEEDS (not necessarily every WANT) in such a way as to be tracked somewhat "scientifically".
Jesus said in Luke 6:38 -
English Standard Version
give, and it will be given to you. Good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, will be put into your lap. For with the measure you use it will be measured back to you.”
New American Standard Bible
"Give, and it will be given to you. They will pour into your lap a good measure-- pressed down, shaken together, and running over. For by your standard of measure it will be measured to you in return."
My experience that this is so trustworthy that it can be tracked.
But you never know exactly HOW the supply will come.
It may be opportunity, it may be money, it may be a delayed bill, it may be some other uncanny manner in which God more than overcompensates for your faith and generosity.
Having said this, know that I am not going to get into a long argument with you about it with debates about definitions and other plausible alternative explanations.
Some consulting with biographies of Christians who really prevailed in the arena might encourage those who would like to hear testimony. For instance - George Mueller who lived by faith and through whose hands quite a lot of money came somehow on time at just the right time to labor on his service with his orphanages.
But I am not going to get into a protracted argument with you about this.
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Originally posted by twhiteheadOriginally posted by twhitehead
Can anyone suggest a reliable method for obtaining knowledge other than science? By reliable I mean the following:
Give 100 reasonably intelligent people the details of the methodology. Separate them from each other and send them off to go and obtain said knowledge. When they get back with the knowledge, the majority agree on the findings, and those that ...[text shortened]... above test? If so, can we have more details as to how one does this and has anyone ever done it?
"If so, can we have more details as to how one does this and has anyone ever done it?"
At the moment a person becomes a believer in Christ [accepting God's grace gift by faith alone], the Holy Spirit imputes an immaterial human spirit which is the home for eternal life and which makes possible the understanding absolute truths revealed in the Word of God as accurately taught by the believer's pastor/teacher..
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-Removed-It presumably appears I was wrong about hell. According to this passage from Luke it will be uncomfortably warm there:
Luke 16:19-31English Standard Version (ESV)
The Rich Man and Lazarus
19 “There was a rich man who was clothed in (A)purple and fine linen and (B)who feasted sumptuously every day. 20 And at his gate (C)was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, 21 who desired to be fed with (D)what fell from the rich man's table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 The poor man died and was carried by (E)the angels (F)to Abraham's side.[a] The rich man also died and was buried, 23 and in (G)Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and (H)saw Abraham far off and Lazarus (I)at his side. 24 And he called out, (J)‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and (K)cool my tongue, for (L)I am in anguish in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that (M)you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’ 27 And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father's house— 28 for I have five brothers[b]—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’ 29 But Abraham said, ‘They have (N)Moses and the Prophets; (O)let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, (P)father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 He said to him, ‘If they do not hear (Q)Moses and the Prophets, (R)neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’”
Footnotes:
Luke 16:22 Greek bosom; also verse 23
Luke 16:28 Or brothers and sisters
Cross references:
Luke 16:19 : Esth. 8:15; Rev. 18:16
Luke 16:19 : [James 5:5]
Luke 16:20 : [Acts 3:2]
Luke 16:21 : [Matt. 15:27]
Luke 16:22 : ch. 15:10; Matt. 18:10; Acts 12:15; Heb. 1:13, 14; See ch. 12:8
Luke 16:22 : [John 13:23 (Gk.)]
Luke 16:23 : See Matt. 11:23
Luke 16:23 : Matt. 8:11, 12
Luke 16:23 : [See ver. 22 above]; [John 13:23 (Gk.)]
Luke 16:24 : ver. 30; John 8:33, 39, 53
Luke 16:24 : [Zech. 14:12]
Luke 16:24 : [Isa. 66:24]; See Matt. 25:41
Luke 16:25 : [ch. 6:24; Job 21:13; Ps. 17:14]
Luke 16:29 : ver. 31; ch. 24:27; Acts 26:22; 28:23
Luke 16:29 : [John 5:45-47]
Luke 16:30 : ver. 24
Luke 16:31 : [See ver. 29 above]; ver. 31; ch. 24:27; Acts 26:22; 28:23
Luke 16:31 : [Matt. 28:11-15; John 12:10, 11]