Spirituality
15 Feb 20
19 Feb 20
@kellyjay saidSo, you're alright Jack, but the "debt" that "remains" for someone "outside of him" - you assure us - is incomprehensibly vindictive and depraved [and never ending] violence onto which, for whatever psychological reasons that are contorting your moral sensibilities, you slap the labels "justice" and "good, perfectly so". Hey presto!
So when confronted with us sinners, His solution was taking our sins punishment upon Himself at the cross, satisfying everything utterly in our justification. In Him, it's all good, and outside of Him, all the debts remain.
"It is what it is," eh, KellyJay? Like in gangster stories and their equivalents reaching way back into the history of human beings' darkest and most depraved imaginings.
19 Feb 20
@vartiovuori saidBecause He didn't destroy us when we showed we were going to refuse to follow God, going our own way? If you accept the nature of God is perfect, then refusing Him and demanding our ways is to reject all that is good, just, merciful, and forbidding His ways for our own, by definition, evil.
But clearly He is neither good, nor just.
19 Feb 20
@kellyjay saidIf your God figure is "good" and "perfect" why do you think he tortures people by burning them in flames for eternity? What is the moral goodness in such violence, vengeance and cruelty?
Because He didn't destroy us when we showed we were going to refuse to follow God, going our own way? If you accept the nature of God is perfect, then refusing Him and demanding our ways is to reject all that is good, just, merciful, and forbidding His ways for our own, by definition, evil.
20 Feb 20
@kellyjay saidNone of which makes eternal torture any more just. The nature of God is perfect, therefore he could have devised a perfectly just solution.
Because He didn't destroy us when we showed we were going to refuse to follow God, going our own way? If you accept the nature of God is perfect, then refusing Him and demanding our ways is to reject all that is good, just, merciful, and forbidding His ways for our own, by definition, evil.
20 Feb 20
@vartiovuori saidIt would appear that KellyJay believes it is "just" and "perfect" because KellyJay believes it is "just" and "perfect". I don't think you're going to get him to delve into it - or offer any discourse - aside from that.
None of which makes eternal torture any more just. The nature of God is perfect, therefore he could have devised a perfectly just solution.
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20 Feb 20
KellyJay: you need to come to (my version of) Jesus
Sinner: why?
KellyJay: because he loves you and died for you while you are still in your sins
Sinner: that’s amazing!
KellyJay: yes it is, and it’s really important that you ask forgiveness from (my version of Jesus)
Sinner: what will happen if I don’t?
KellyJay: Jesus will put in in a special place which he has created for all the sinners and there he will oversee the eternal burning alive of you and billions of others who don’t ask for forgiveness
Sinner: 😱
Sinner: hang on a minute, I thought this Jesus loved me so much that he died for me while I was still a sinner?
KellyJay: he does love you but he’s holy and pure and you are evil.
Sinner: so he died for me despite my evil, but if I don’t believe that he will still burn me alive forever?
KellyJay: that’s right.
Sinner: Your god is a demented monster!
KellyJay: who are we to question god, his ways are so much higher than our ways....
Sinner: Goodbye.
20 Feb 20
@vartiovuori saidThe solution of giving us all life, giving us the freedom to love and be loved? What was wrong with that? You are upset that evil is going to be dealt with harshly, that the guilty are all going to pay for the things they have chosen to do and say? You think it is not just that every evil and wicked deed are going to judged and all those that have done evil and wicked deeds are going to held accountable for what they have done?
None of which makes eternal torture any more just. The nature of God is perfect, therefore he could have devised a perfectly just solution.
You want justice; you are telling the eternal God He is unjust because you don’t like His punishment and forgiveness because they too are also both endless? I’m sure everyone guilty and made to pay for their crimes isn’t happy with the sentence they receive? God took our guilt upon Himself to redeem us from all of our unrighteousness against Him and each other, what could be more merciful than that in the face of perfect justice?
What is it you think, that those who are guilty be able to stay in the rebellion against God and without repentance not be held accountable? You think God should give a pass for the sins people do and will not repent of or even acknowledge are wrong when they know better? You believe people given over to sins that they refuse God, should be allowed into God’s Kingdom when they prefer to turn their backs on Him? Why would God force someone to spend eternity with Him who hates and despises Him?
I read something a little while back that had someone making a claim, I want justice, I want to be declared innocent and set free! I did indeed murder the person; I did the crime, but the body of my work has my good deeds out weight the bad; therefore, I should be set free and declared innocent! Is this the type of argument you are making infront of a God who has seen every lie, and the wicked thing we have done? Yes, we have fallen short but you should forgive us anyway?
Well, forgiveness is offered by God for God; justification is given to all who seek God and come to Him paid for by God not ourselves. God’s perfect justice is satisfied in Jesus Christ on our behalf, and this is both perfect justice and mercy, the cross of Christ. I find God just without flaws. I think He is perfect in all He says and does. Men love darkness because our deeds are evil; those that seek God with all their hearts will find Him, they love their sins and want to stay in them, will.
20 Feb 20
@kellyjay saidMmm, another wall of text.
The solution of giving us all life, giving us the freedom to love and be loved? What was wrong with that? You are upset that evil is going to be dealt with harshly, that the guilty are all going to pay for the things they have chosen to do and say? You think it is not just that every evil and wicked deed are going to judged and all those that have done evil and wicked deeds ...[text shortened]... t seek God with all their hearts will find Him, they love their sins and want to stay in them, will.
Why torment for eternity in burning flames? How is that "just"?
20 Feb 20
@kellyjay saidIn what way are you arguing that it is "perfect justice"?
God took our guilt upon Himself to redeem us from all of our unrighteousness against Him and each other, what could be more merciful than that in the face of perfect justice?
What is it you think, that those who are guilty be able to stay in the rebellion against God and without repentance not be held accountable? You think God should give a pass for the sins people do an ...[text shortened]... t seek God with all their hearts will find Him, they love their sins and want to stay in them, will.
20 Feb 20
@kellyjay saidWhy, to your way of thinking, would your God figure force someone to spend eternity being tortured for not believing in him?
Why would God force someone to spend eternity with Him who hates and despises Him?
I feel I have no reason to believe the God figure you describe exists.
I cannot "hate" and "despise" someone I do not think exists.
20 Feb 20
@kellyjay saidBut don't you believe that there are no consequences for you and that you are not going to be held accountable for "every evil and wicked deed" you do?
You are upset that evil is going to be dealt with harshly, that the guilty are all going to pay for the things they have chosen to do and say? You think it is not just that every evil and wicked deed are going to judged and all those that have done evil and wicked deeds are going to held accountable for what they have done?
20 Feb 20
@kellyjay saidI don't believe I am turning my back on anyone or anything. I just find the religious doctrine that you are reciting to be non-credible.
You believe people given over to sins that they refuse God, should be allowed into God’s Kingdom when they prefer to turn their backs on Him?
20 Feb 20
@kellyjay saidIf someone slaps your face, do you think torturing them to death is a just punishment? If someone steals bread because it's the only way to avoid starving, do you think their hand should be cut off? These are both infinitely more just punishments than what your infinitely evil God meters out.
The solution of giving us all life, giving us the freedom to love and be loved? What was wrong with that? You are upset that evil is going to be dealt with harshly, that the guilty are all going to pay for the things they have chosen to do and say? You think it is not just that every evil and wicked deed are going to judged and all those that have done evil and wicked deeds ...[text shortened]... t seek God with all their hearts will find Him, they love their sins and want to stay in them, will.
For a punishment to be just, it has to PROPORTIONAL with the crime that was committed. Since humans are only capable of committing finite crimes, any sort of infinite punishment is inherently unjust, and inherently evil.
20 Feb 20
@vartiovuori saidYou know what is proportional? You live in this world, it all started in one act of disobedience where our desire to be like God knowing good and evil started all of the murders, stealing, hate, and so on. One act was all it took, and you think you know what is proportional? You have eyes to see the outcome of all things so you know better than God what is evil and good?
If someone slaps your face, do you think torturing them to death is a just punishment? If someone steals bread because it's the only way to avoid starving, do you think their hand should be cut off? These are both infinitely more just punishments than what your infinitely evil God meters out.
For a punishment to be just, it has to PROPORTIONAL with the crime that was c ...[text shortened]... committing finite crimes, any sort of infinite punishment is inherently unjust, and inherently evil.