Originally posted by wolfgang59 I think you missed my point.
My brother does not care that I lied. (He has no faith)
I am just disappointed in myself for lying and disrespecting that church.
I cannot undo any of that.
It's unfortunate that he put you through that, then.
And thanks for answering my question.
At first I had assumed that you didn't know what a god-parent's duties are, but I felt that was too assuming, so I assumed you did know, and thus my question. But since you explained that you didn't know, the entire incident makes more sense. It still wasn't cool for your brother to pull that on you. I mean that, even beyond making a mockery of the service. He shouldn't have put you in that situation.
Originally posted by FMF Well, I suppose this is a brand of religion-fuelled presumptuousness and pomposity that I am no longer associated with on account of no longer being a Christian. I alluded to this in my longer post up the page.
You can call it what you want, but you were never a Christian.
One can't just say they are a Christian unless they believe God. Apparently you never really did believe God otherwise you wouldn't say you're an "ex-Christian ".
The logic of your position is convoluted. By definition if one professes to believe God, and thereby is made a son or daughter of God by God, but then turns around and changes their mind and states that they no longer believe God and are no longer a Christian, that one never really believed God, and was never a Christian to begin with.
"Well, I suppose this is a brand of religion-fuelled presumptuousness and pomposity that I am no longer associated with on account of no longer being a Christian."
That statement proves my point. Apparently you were just a "religious-fueled presumptuous" type of self-made christian. You said it yourself.
Originally posted by Suzianne "Assuming you have one." Assuming you have a faith, or assuming you have a quandry, I can't tell which was meant but it doesn't really matter. You have made it obvious that you have neither. So why bother giving an answer to the question that doesn't even answer the question?
Because I think it adds some modicum of relevant information to the discussion. You are right to say that I don't have a religious faith now but I used to.
There were three points when I might have experienced a "quandary" of some sort as I made the transition from one to the other.
I could have been in a quandary about my faith when I was still a Christian.
I could have been in a quandary when I realized that I was no longer able to subscribe to the beliefs that the Christians around me did.
And I could have been in a quandary in my post-Christian life without the 'certainties' that my faith had afforded me previously.
But I was lucky. No quandaries. Relevant I think. And eminently ignore-able if one doesn't agree.
Originally posted by Suzianne Because you have a point to make that you think squashes the concept of religion, without appearing that this is your motivation.
My motivation was to offer some personal testimony.
Originally posted by josephw One can't just say they are a Christian unless they believe God. Apparently you never really did believe God otherwise you wouldn't say you're an "ex-Christian ".
I did believe in God. And I believed specifically in the Christian concept of God as revealed in the Bible. I was obviously a Christian at that stage in my life.
Originally posted by josephw [...] you were never a Christian [...] you never really did believe God [...] never really believed God [...] never a Christian to begin with. [...] you were a Christian only by name, but certainly not by faith ...
Presumably you are saying this somehow for your own benefit and perhaps for the benefit of other Christians because you will surely be aware that it's nonsense as far as I am concerned. Not even your devout Christian faith enables you to reach into my past life and alter what I saw as real for me in the past. I will attribute your arrogance to your fervour. But I don't know exactly to what I can attribute your lack of understanding of the human condition.
Originally posted by FMF I did believe in God. And I believed specifically in the Christian concept of God as revealed in the Bible. I was obviously a Christian at that stage in my life.
But you did not "believe" God. Whether you understand it or not there is a difference between believing in God and believing God.
If you try to turn it around now and state that you did believe God, but now you don't, you are then essentially calling God a liar.
Originally posted by josephw But you did not "believe" God. Whether you understand it or not there is a difference between believing in God and believing God.
If you try to turn it around now and state that you did believe God, but now you don't, you are then essentially calling God a liar.
You don't seem to have any idea of what losing faith actually means. How can a non-Christian like myself, who does not believe in your God figure at all, possibly be described as "essentially calling God a liar"? You ought to have something more up your rhetorical sleeve than sophistry of this kind if you are going to talk to ex-Christians.
My apologies to Ghost of a Duke. I stand by the stuff I offered about NOT experiencing quandaries when I might well have done, but this stuff with josephw telling me what I was and wasn't in the past is admittedly off topic. Sorry.
Originally posted by FMF Presumably you are saying this somehow for your own benefit and perhaps for the benefit of other Christians because you will surely be aware that it's nonsense as far as I am concerned. Not even your devout Christian faith enables you to reach into my past life and alter what I saw as real for me in the past. I will attribute your arrogance to your fervour. But I don't know exactly to what I can attribute your lack of understanding of the human condition.
You're beginning to get shrill and making this personal by your derogatory remarks.
Relax. I'm not judging you or accusing you of anything. I'm just trying to make my points based on the topic of discussion. Try to remain objective.
Originally posted by josephw You're beginning to get shrill and making this personal by your derogatory remarks.
Relax. I'm not judging you or accusing you of anything. I'm just trying to make my points based on the topic of discussion. Try to remain objective.
Telling someone who was a committed Christian for a quarter of a century that he wasn't one after all - and offering little more than wordplay as your evidence - is about as subjective and peculiarly "personal" as you could be. 😀
Originally posted by FMF You don't seem to have any idea of what losing faith actually means. How can a non-Christian like myself, who does not believe in your God figure at all, possibly be described as "essentially calling God a liar"? You ought to have something more up your rhetorical sleeve than sophistry of this kind if you are going to talk to ex-Christians.
That's ridiculous. You have stated that you have no faith. How can you possibly think you can tell me what faith is. Very obtuse.
You stated that you were a Christian. By definition, being a Christian means believing God. So, by pure and simple logic, if one no longer believes God, when once upon a time they did, but now they don't, that one is then calling God a liar, saying in effect that God doesn't save sinners and make them into sons and daughters.
Religious quandary
08 Feb '16 12:22
Back to Top