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Originally posted by @thinkofone
Given the context and the use of the definite article, it's a real reach to assert that Jesus is speaking of the OT in general there.
I saw commentaries saying THE Scripture could not be borken (or loosened).
Question to YOU:
Which Scripture CAN be broken then ?
If the one passage is the only one that cannot be broken why did Jesus refer to the infallible authority of the entire law?
"For truly I say to you, Until heaven and earth pass away, one iota or one serif shall by no means pass away from the law until all come to pass." (Matt. 5:18)
The Scripture cannot be broken.
And THE law shall not pass away as to even one iota or one serif (punctuation marks) until all come to pass.
And whether THE section of Scripture known as the Psalm 82 verse 6 OR Psalm 82 in its entirety OR ALL the Psalms and all the REST of "the Scripture" the fact remains that Jesus said of God -
He is Righteous,
He is Perfect.
He is Good.
So even if you insist that only the 6th verse of the 82nd Psalm cannot be broken, Christ STILL recommended to us God of the entire Bible as "Righteous Father".
You lose the case. And the reading comprehension argument does nothing for you. Suffice it to say that there are many commentaries on the Bible. And among them it is not surprising you find one that "seems" good for the atheist to cherry pick out, to make some bogus case or another.
When Jesus said "It is WRITTEN" (Matthew 4:4;7;10) He was repeatedly reminding the Devil of the authority of ALL the Old Testament as the word of God.
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Folks, there are eight verses in Psalm 82.
If ONLY verse 6 cannot be broken what did Jesus say about God?
He said God is perfect and righteous and good.
if all 8 verses of Psalm 82 cannot be broken what did Jesus say about God?
He said God is perfect and righteous and good.
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Originally posted by @bigdoggproblemBigDoggProblem believes his righteousness exceeds that of Jesus Christ.
I do. but that's not a brag. Philosophical study and knowledge, including ethics, evolves over time. I think most people of today have superior morality and ethics, concept-wise, than Jesus. But this is like saying that people know more accurate physics principles than Aristotle.
No, I think that you saying "most people of today have superior morality and ethics, concept-wise, than Jesus" is saying this -
"most people of today have superior morality and ethics, concept-wise, than Jesus."
We patiently await your impact upon world history comparable to that of Jesus Christ.
I think that is delusional.
in between chess games, maybe you could, set aside three and a half years to influence civilization with words and deeds placing you on the same level of esteem as Jesus Christ.
It's not that we ourselves are greater scientists. It's that we've been given free knowledge from the greats that came after him.
Christ stood before His zealous enemies and challenged them "Which of you convicts Me of sin?" .
Can you make that challenge to all who have known you even on this Website ? We all can look up your name and examine all of your posts.
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BigDOggProblem,
America bounces back and forth between sexual repression and hedonism. So, most tend to have either too little, or too much, passion.
I don't agree that the overwhelming majority ought to reduce their passion. But I also think porn use of the kind you describe actually reduces passion.
Are these the same people of whom you say -
I think most people of today have superior morality and ethics, concept-wise, than Jesus.?
Originally posted by @sonshipIn the following verses Jesus defines a "law and the prophets" that is conceptually markedly different from the OT "law and the prophets".Given the context and the use of the definite article, it's a real reach to assert that Jesus is speaking of the OT in general there.
I saw commentaries saying THE Scripture could not be borken (or loosened).
Question to YOU:
Which Scripture CAN be broken then ?
If the one passage is the only one that cannot be broken why did Je ...[text shortened]... repeatedly[/i] reminding the Devil of the authority of ALL the Old Testament as the word of God.
Matthew 7
12“In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the law and the prophets.
Matthew 22
37And He said to him, “ ‘YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.’ 38“This is the great and foremost commandment. 39“The second is like it, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’ 40“On these two commandments depend the whole law and the prophets.”
"Treat people the same way you want them to treat you" IS the law and the prophets.
And the law and the prophets DEPENDS upon " ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF".
Following are a couple of examples of the ramifications of this:
1) The prohibition against eating shellfish has nothing to do with ""treat people the same way you want them to treat you" and "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF". As such, the prohibition against eating shellfish is not a part of the "law and the prophets" defined by Jesus.
2) The depiction of God condoning chattel slavery is antithetical to ""treat people the same way you want them to treat you" and "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF". As such, the depiction of God condoning chattel slavery is not a part of the "law and the prophets" defined by Jesus.
When Jesus said "It is WRITTEN" (Matthew 4:4;7;10) He was repeatedly reminding the Devil of the authority of ALL the Old Testament as the word of God.
Your conclusion doesn't logically follow.
29 Mar 18
Originally posted by @sonshipWhat does "impact" have to do with morality? Many evil people also have had far more "impact" on world history than I ever will. I think you got confused when that word entered your brain.
BigDoggProblem believes his righteousness exceeds that of Jesus Christ.
[quote] I do. but that's not a brag. Philosophical study and knowledge, including ethics, evolves over time. I think most people of today have superior morality and ethics, concept-wise, than Jesus. But this is like saying that people know more accurate physics principles than Arist ...[text shortened]... ave known you even on this Website ? We all can look up your name and examine all of your posts.
I never said I did no wrong. I am as human as the next person.
I actually think Jesus did some wrong things, such as beating down the money changers at the temple. Maybe they were crooks, but did it justify violence? I should think not. If I went around beating up scammers and con artists, I'd certainly get in trouble with the law.
And what about the time Jesus disobeyed his parents and kept teaching at temple? Sounds like a failure to honor "thy father and mother" to me.
I'm sure you'll justify both of these somehow, but it's really beside my point, which is that from a study and knowledge perspective, I and most here are (literally) thousands of years ahead of Jesus Christ on ethics.
29 Mar 18
Originally posted by @sonshipOnce again you have knowledge confused with behavior.
BigDOggProblem,
America bounces back and forth between sexual repression and hedonism. So, most tend to have either too little, or too much, passion.
I don't agree that the overwhelming majority ought to reduce their passion. But I also think porn use of the kind you describe actually reduces passion.
Are these the same people of ...[text shortened]... nk most people of today have superior morality and ethics, concept-wise, than Jesus. [/quote] ?
Most people do things they know are wrong. (conscience violations)
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My question:
Who participating in discussions on this Forum believes that they are more righteous than Jesus Christ?
My rephrase of the question:
Who are the posters here who believe their righteousness, their morality, and their ethics are greater then that of Jesus Christ ?
BigDoggProblem's answer:
I do.
Is it my fault if I take him to mean his life and living are of a higher righteousness then that of Jesus Christ ?
He said he believes so.
Well, what do his caveats mean?
... but that's not a brag. Philosophical study and knowledge, including ethics, evolves over time. I think most people of today have superior morality and ethics, concept-wise, than Jesus. But this is like saying that people know more accurate physics principles than Aristotle. It's not that we ourselves are greater scientists. It's that we've been given free knowledge from the greats that came after him.
I ask about life and living.
He means just what I would call "the knowledge of good and evil".
But I do not ask about what he knows is good but is not able to perform.
Neither do I ask about what he knows is evil but is not able to resist.
I ask about his life and living, the good he can perform in life and the evil he can resist in life.
All in all on either count I think he comes below Jesus.
Me too.
Both ethical knowledge of any kind AND with ethical living, Christ is more right and more righteous.
On both counts I would consider him less righteous then Jesus.
29 Mar 18
Originally posted by @sonshipDeal direct, you coward.
My question:Who participating in discussions on this Forum believes that they are more righteous than Jesus Christ?
My rephrase of the question:Who are the posters here who believe their righteousness, their morality, and their ethics are greater then that of Jesus Christ ?
BigDoggProblem's answer:
[quote] I do. [ ...[text shortened]... more right and more righteous.
On both counts I would consider him less righteous then Jesus.
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Originally posted by @bigdoggproblem
What does "impact" have to do with morality? Many evil people also have had far more "impact" on world history than I ever will. I think you got confused when that word entered your brain.
I think you are talking about some kind of vain knowledge which makes no difference to the way one lives or influence on anyone else.
That's vanity.
I never said I did no wrong. I am as human as the next person.
But Jesus DID. IF your righteousness exceeds His, you should be able to say likewise.
I actually think Jesus did some wrong things, such as beating down the money changers at the temple. Maybe they were crooks, but did it justify violence?
Maybe you're more impressed with Barney the Dinosaur?
Love can be a kick in the seat of the pants sometimes.
I think His going to that length of emphatic insistence demonstrated the importance of what He was teaching.
I don't see Him doing much more than chasing the dumb animals out with a whip. I never imagined this as him landing blows again the backs of the people.
"And having made a whip out of cords, He drove them all out of the temple, as well as the sheep and the oxen, and He poured out the money of the money changers and overturned their tables." (John 2:15)
Beating on people?
I could only say "Maybe".
His teaching there was emphatic, vital, and crucial. And it was given in tough love.
"And Jesus entered into the temple and cast out all those who were selling and buying in the temple, And He overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who were sere selling the doves.
And He said to them, It is written, My house shall be called a house of prayer, but you are making it a den of robbers." (Matt. 21:13)
But if you are angry with Jesus because of that it sound like you are throwing your lot in with those who latter cried out for His crucifixion.
More righteous then Jesus yet likely to be in the mob incensed at Him and clamoring for His execution?
I would think you'd be the first to complain if a place for worship had been usurped to be a money market for robbers and swindlers in religious garb.
I should think not. If I went around beating up scammers and con artists, I'd certainly get in trouble with the law.
Well, I think He chased them away by first dealing with the animals. THEY didn't know any better.
So you imagine Jesus beating on the backs of people?
Okay, I can't insist that no human felt a blow.
Do you think the SPCA also should have gotten after Him?
And what about the time Jesus disobeyed his parents and kept teaching at temple? Sounds like a failure to honor "thy father and mother" to me.
Were you saying something recently about "reading comprehension"? Read it again. He was subject to them.
"And He said to them, Why is it that you were seeking Me? Did you not know that I must be in the things of My Father?
And they did not understand the word which He spoke to them.
And He went down with them and came to Nazareth, AND WAS SUBJECT TO THEM." (See Luke 2:49,50)
He was submissive to them BigDoggProblem.
it says that they didn't understand something.
Probably they didn't understand how real it was that God was His Father rather than Joseph. His mother mistakenly referred to Joseph as his father.
"And when they saw Him, they were astounded; and His mother said to Him,
Child, why have You treated us like this? Behold, You father and I, being greatly distressed, have been seeking You." (v.48)
In motherly moment she forgot that He was the SON OF GOD not the son of Joseph.
I'm sure you'll justify both of these somehow, but it's really beside my point, which is that from a study and knowledge perspective, I and most here are (literally) thousands of years ahead of Jesus Christ on ethics.
Your arrogance is years ahead of Jesus, I'm sure.
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29 Mar 18
Originally posted by @bigdoggproblemMore direct?
Deal direct, you coward.
Sure. On both and any counts you're morally and ethically filthy and no comparison to Jesus Christ.
Me too.
Direct enough ?
Yet moral filthiness is not your only problem.
You're blind to it too.
But the bible does say "ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God." .
I need a Savior too.
Originally posted by @bigdoggproblemYou may wish (def need) to speak to someone about your fantasies: they're not a good indicator.
What does "impact" have to do with morality? Many evil people also have had far more "impact" on world history than I ever will. I think you got confused when that word entered your brain.
I never said I did no wrong. I am as human as the next person.
I actually think Jesus did some wrong things, such as beating down the money changers at the t ...[text shortened]... perspective, I and most here are (literally) thousands of years ahead of Jesus Christ on ethics.
29 Mar 18
Originally posted by @bigdoggproblemYou're just a silly little Muppet, aren't you!
Deal direct, you coward.
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Originally posted by @freakykbhSays Bunsen Honeydew.
You're just a silly little Muppet, aren't you!
Originally posted by @sonshipI think I am talking about the kind of knowledge which makes a difference in the way I conduct my life, even when no one is watching, and even when it has no effect on "world history".What does "impact" have to do with morality? Many evil people also have had far more "impact" on world history than I ever will. I think you got confused when that word entered your brain.
I think you are talking about some kind of vain knowledge which makes no difference to the way one lives or influence on anyone else.
That's vanity ...[text shortened]... rs ahead of Jesus Christ on ethics.[/quote]
Your arrogance is years ahead of Jesus, I'm sure.
But Jesus DID. IF your righteousness exceeds His, you should be able to say likewise.
Come to think of it, that was quite arrogant of Jesus to say. Your arrogance detector must be malfunctioning.
Beating on people?
I could only say "Maybe".
It strains the imagination to think he did all this driving out without striking people with that whip. Would he not use it if they called his bluff? Would he not even hit someone by accident in this WWE-style melee?!
I don't support mob rule, torture, or crucifixion. This sort of statement is often necessary with people of your beliefs because your moral compass is that skewed. Maybe you missed the part where I said scourging people with whips is wrong.
Okay, I can't insist that no human felt a blow.
Credit for honesty.
As for Jesus and his parents, the story as recounted in Luke doesn't pass the "smell test."
43 After the festival was over, while his parents were returning home, the boy Jesus stayed behind in Jerusalem, but they were unaware of it. 44 Thinking he was in their company, they traveled on for a day. Then they began looking for him among their relatives and friends. 45 When they did not find him, they went back to Jerusalem to look for him.
The author places the sole blame on the parents for negligence. I think it likely that they told him in advance when they'd be leaving, trusting that he'd make it back to the company in time. At best, Jesus was also negligent in that he lost track of time. At worst, he was so arrogant about the importance of his activities that he did not mind inconveniencing his entire family.