Is God ever wrong?

@kellyjay said
Breathing, I hear that is a good sign. 😉 How about yourself?

Ugh. Barely breathing (COPD) but otherwise fine.

Good to see you, bud.

@earl-of-trumps said
Ugh. Barely breathing (COPD) but otherwise fine.

Good to see you, bud.

Ouch, sorry to hear that!
Its always nice to be seen. 🙂

@ghost-of-a-duke said
If God is indeed infallible and incapable of mistakes, how do we account for the regret He shows in the following passages? Why was God, as an infallible deity, unable to foresee what would come of his decisions? Why the need for regret?

"And the LORD was sorry that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart." Genesis 6:6 (RSVA)

“I regret tha ...[text shortened]... ing, for he has turned back from following me and has not performed my commandments.” 1 Samuel 15:11

He just takes a lot of mulligans

@ghost-of-a-duke said
I have my doubts sir, but while you ponder on it I have (to be on the safe side) issued instructions for the removal of all axes from your neighborhood.

For me, the arbitrary and pointless suffering of the fawn you reference 'becomes' evil when a supreme being who has the power (and alleged heart) to prevent it fails to act. (Especially when such an act has no bearing on our autonomy as conscious agents).

Yes, that's the point of the suffering fawn. I think the problem of "random pointless suffering" is essentially the same problem as the "problem of evil". In the axe murderer example, if I cannot think of committing the act then my cognition is constrained, if I can't think of committing any harmful act then I can't think at all. My ability to do harm means that there is risk to potential victims who we can imagine as innocent. If a potential victim can't be harmed then I couldn't be an axe murderer. That we can be harmed entails that we can be harmed randomly and pointlessly. I'm sorry, but I'm not seeing a huge problem for omnibenevolence here.

Alvin Plantinga produced an argument called the "free will defense". He takes a similar line of argument:

The argument from evil is based on the following:

1) God is omniscient
2) God is omnipotent
3) God is omnibenevolent
4) There is evil in the world

The claim is that this entails a contradiction. Plantinga argues that there is a hidden assumption that God's omnipotence allows him to create a world where agents are both morally free and do no harm. Omnipotence is not normally assumed to allow the omnipotent agent to perform logically contradictory acts such as drawing a square with the same area of as a circle using only a straight edge and compasses in a finite number of steps. This means that it is not possible to create a world where agents cannot do harms and are morally free.

My argument is somewhat stronger as Plantinga is attacking the argument that it should be logically impossible for a God with the above properties to create a world containing evil, or at least the potential for evil. I'm arguing that it is necessary for God to allow evil into the world if agents are to have any freedom at all.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alvin_Plantinga's_free-will_defense

@deepthought said
I'm arguing that it is necessary for God to allow evil into the world if agents are to have any freedom at all.

How then do we account for the interventions God has made (according to the Bible) in human history, apparently putting our freewill in jeopardy? Is his Omni-benevolence and desire to stop evil intermittent, random, limited, here today gone tomorrow? Take Exodus 6:6 for example:

"Say, therefore, to the sons of Israel, 'I am the LORD, and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and I will deliver you from their bondage I will also redeem you with an outstretched arm and with great judgments.'

Where was God at other dark period's in our history?

@ghost-of-a-duke said
How then do we account for the interventions God has made (according to the Bible) in human history, apparently putting our freewill in jeopardy? Is his Omni-benevolence and desire to stop evil intermittent, random, limited, here today gone tomorrow? Take Exodus 6:6 for example:

"Say, therefore, to the sons of Israel, 'I am the LORD, and I will bring you out from ...[text shortened]... outstretched arm and with great judgments.'

Where was God at other dark period's in our history?

If He didn't intervene what happened before the flood would occur again. Evil is within our nature, He has come to change our nature within us, which is the new life in Christ, being born again.

@kellyjay said
If He didn't intervene what happened before the flood would occur again. Evil is within our nature, He has come to change our nature within us, which is the new life in Christ, being born again.

Why is divine interference intermittent?

In another thread you said 'allowing us to act as we will is what is going on' and now seem to be justifying God intervening in our lives. Which is it?

@ghost-of-a-duke said
Why is divine interference intermittent?

In another thread you said 'allowing us to act as we will is what is going on' and now seem to be justifying God intervening in our lives. Which is it?

There would be no choice if all acts of disobedience we're not allowed, and we would never see the fruit of wickedness and evil if they were never allowed to play out. Adam and Eve wanted to know good and evil. We are experiencing it and are witnessing the fallout now.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
Why is divine interference intermittent?

In another thread you said 'allowing us to act as we will is what is going on' and now seem to be justifying God intervening in our lives. Which is it?

It's not interference, it's intervention, and it's not intermittent.

God will allow you to do as you please, that is until He decides you've gone too far, then God intervenes. That's in the negative sense.

Then there are times when God doesn't intervene. It all has the appearance of being a crapshoot, but God is sovereign and nothing is out of control.

@kellyjay said
There would be no choice if all acts of disobedience we're not allowed, and we would never see the fruit of wickedness and evil if they were never allowed to play out. Adam and Eve wanted to know good and evil. We are experiencing it and are witnessing the fallout now.

Adam and Eve is a story kelly. We evolved as a species. The evidence for this is overwhelming. (Let's face it, it's conclusive). No Adam and Eve, no original sin, no fallout to account for the broken world we're living in now.

@secondson said
It's not interference, it's intervention, and it's not intermittent.

God will allow you to do as you please, that is until He decides you've gone too far, then God intervenes. That's in the negative sense.

Then there are times when God doesn't intervene. It all has the appearance of being a crapshoot, but God is sovereign and nothing is out of control.

How is it not intermittent?

There to take the Jews out of Egypt, not there to save them from the concentration camps. Was that not going 'too far' for God?!

@ghost-of-a-duke said
How is it not intermittent?

There to take the Jews out of Egypt, not there to save them from the concentration camps. Was that not going 'too far' for God?!

Are concentration camps different from other times of captivity?

@kellyjay said
Are concentration camps different from other times of captivity?

Are you not familiar with the huge numbers who were killed in those concentration camps?

Yes, very different.

If God's intervention is not intermittent, where was He?

@ghost-of-a-duke said
Are you not familiar with the huge numbers who were killed in those concentration camps?

Yes, very different.

If God's intervention is not intermittent, where was He?

Very familiar, the question remains. The blessing and curses remain if we are talking about one or millions. This does not become an issue if the number of people is great or small, why would it?

@kellyjay said
Very familiar, the question remains. The blessing and curses remain if we are talking about one or millions. This does not become an issue if the number of people is great or small, why would it?

Are you trying to say that the victims of the Holocaust were cursed?