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21 Jan 20
If God is indeed infallible and incapable of mistakes, how do we account for the regret He shows in the following passages? Why was God, as an infallible deity, unable to foresee what would come of his decisions? Why the need for regret?
"And the LORD was sorry that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart." Genesis 6:6 (RSVA)
“I regret that I have made Saul king, for he has turned back from following me and has not performed my commandments.” 1 Samuel 15:11
21 Jan 20
@ghost-of-a-duke saidHow is regretting a fault?
If God is indeed infallible and incapable of mistakes, how do we account for the regret He shows in the following passages? Why was God, as an infallible deity, unable to foresee what would come of his decisions? Why the need for regret?
"And the LORD was sorry that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart." Genesis 6:6 (RSVA)
“I regret tha ...[text shortened]... ing, for he has turned back from following me and has not performed my commandments.” 1 Samuel 15:11
But God doesn't "regret" in the same way as you and I.
God knew before creating everything. The fact that God regretted isn't a symptom of a fault, but instead a lesson for man.
21 Jan 20
@Ghost-of-a-Duke
Out of curiosity where does the infallibility claim come from, is that actually in the Bible or is it just theological escalation? Omniscience implies infallibility, but doesn't guarantee it if the future's not set. God's only required to know everything that is knowable and until it's happened it's not actual - statements like "There will be a sea battle tomorrow." are contingent on future events and while one might have a well justified belief that there will be a sea battle tomorrow, it's not certain as there might be a storm, so it can't really be described as true.
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21 Jan 20
@deepthought saidI did actually do a quick google search (when writing the OP) with the intention of finding a biblical passage to support the 'infallibility' claim, but struggled to find one.
@Ghost-of-a-Duke
Out of curiosity where does the infallibility claim come from, is that actually in the Bible or is it just theological escalation? Omniscience implies infallibility, but doesn't guarantee it if the future's not set. God's only required to know everything that is knowable and until it's happened it's not actual - statements like "There will be a sea bat ...[text shortened]... attle tomorrow, it's not certain as there might be a storm, so it can't really be described as true.
Maybe a Christian will oblige?
21 Jan 20
@ghost-of-a-duke saidHe has given us the ability to do good or evil, to do right or wrong. With that, He has to live with the results as well. Knowing we can do good, then choose not to can only cause Him regret and pain. Do you believe that if anything that doesn't please God completely should never be allowed to exist?
If God is indeed infallible and incapable of mistakes, how do we account for the regret He shows in the following passages? Why was God, as an infallible deity, unable to foresee what would come of his decisions? Why the need for regret?
"And the LORD was sorry that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart." Genesis 6:6 (RSVA)
“I regret tha ...[text shortened]... ing, for he has turned back from following me and has not performed my commandments.” 1 Samuel 15:11
21 Jan 20
@ghost-of-a-duke saidHe is good and just, to lessen either of those would change who He is, it can not happen. We can make any standard of what success looks like and failure, so our judgment in this life we may not see the goals, as well as the playing field.
I did actually do a quick google search (when writing the OP) with the intention of finding a biblical passage to support the 'infallibility' claim, but struggled to find one.
Maybe a Christian will oblige?
If someone declared God failed in His creation because they are not allowed to have all they want, the claim could be made the standard adopted by many, but is it righteous and just?
To fail would be not to accomplish what He wants while maintaining true to His nature.
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21 Jan 20
@kellyjay saidSo, you also failed to find a biblical passage to substantiate the infallibility claim?!
He is good and just, to lessen either of those would change who He is, it can not happen. We can make any standard of what success looks like and failure, so our judgment in this life we may not see the goals, as well as the playing field.
If someone declared God failed in His creation because they are not allowed to have all they want, the claim could be made the standar ...[text shortened]... and just?
To fail would be not to accomplish what He wants while maintaining true to His nature.
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21 Jan 20
@kellyjay saidSure, but isn't he omniscient?
He has given us the ability to do good or evil, to do right or wrong. With that, He has to live with the results as well. Knowing we can do good, then choose not to can only cause Him regret and pain. Do you believe that if anything that doesn't please God completely should never be allowed to exist?
If I knew to give a kitten a thimble to play with would result in him choosing to swallow it and choke I simply wouldn't give the kitten the thimble in the first place. (Rather than regretting it afterwards).
21 Jan 20
@ghost-of-a-duke saidNo, I'm telling you, there has to be some measure of failure, to show Him to fallible. God doesn't fail at anything He wants to do, so in that, He will not fail. He, with us, has been willing to accept our choices and still do what He always intended to do with us, which is to create us in His image, after salvation, our sanctification begins. Concerning verses, how many gods are you aware of that makes covenants with man, and does so declaring them to be everlasting, there isn’t a direct quote that I’m aware of outside of His saying He will do what He says, and knowing it will be, because God said.
So, you also failed to find a biblical passage to substantiate the infallibility claim?!
Isaiah 55 (ESV)
Incline your ear, and come to me;
hear, that your soul may live;
and I will make with you an everlasting covenant,
my steadfast, sure love for David.
Behold, I made him a witness to the peoples,
a leader and commander for the peoples.
Behold, you shall call a nation that you do not know,
and a nation that did not know you shall run to you,
because of the LORD your God, and of the Holy One of Israel,
for he has glorified you.
22 Jan 20
@ghost-of-a-duke saidFor us to be who God created us to be truth, love, and so on has be part of our makeup. We can live what we know is a lie or a fantasy only because it is what we want. To embrace truth and love, we have to be able to say no as well as yes. You keep ignoring the nature of God as perfectly good, just, righteous, holy, and attempt to turn Him into something manageable created by the minds of men. God as Jesus said is good and the only one who is. Can someone be created to love and receive love without also being able to reject love? Can the truth surrounding love, hate, selfishness, selflessness, be put on display without everything working there way out, so the authenticity of all those things is real? Do you think we would all accept what God says and that settles it? We are to be witnesses, and when judgment day comes, the truth in all that was said and done with nothing hidden will be displayed, God’s part and ours with nothing hidden.
Sure, but isn't he omniscient?
If I knew to give a kitten a thimble to play with would result in him choosing to swallow it and choke I simply wouldn't give the kitten the thimble in the first place. (Rather than regretting it afterwards).
22 Jan 20
@ghost-of-a-duke saidInfallible?
So, you also failed to find a biblical passage to substantiate the infallibility claim?!
You know what infallible means, but not by experience.
Logic: if God could fail, He wouldn't be God
"God is love". "Love never fails". 1 John 4 & 1 Corinthians 13.
If one cannot think biblically, then one cannot think logically.
Consider also that God's Word is infallible, and His Word is synonymous with His very nature, in fact God even says He magnifies His Word above His name. Psalm 138:2c "...for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name."
Also, Jesus said ",..one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." Matthew 5:18c
Consider also psalm 19:7-9
The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.
The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.
Those verses can be broken down in this manner: The law, the testimony, the statutes, the commandment, the fear and the judgments.
Each of those has a characteristic: perfect, sure, right, pure, clean and true.
And each characteristic has an attribute: converting the soul, making wise the simple, rejoicing the heart, enlightening the eyes, enduring forever and righteous altogether.
Questioning the infallibility of God with the purpose and intent of undermining His character and attributes is synonymous with doing the same with His Word. The attempt to do so is illogical, irrational and a fruitless dead end endeavor.
p.s. Did you ignore my first post, or was it an oversight?
22 Jan 20
@secondson said
Infallible?
You know what infallible means, but not by experience.
Logic: if God could fail, He wouldn't be God
"God is love". "Love never fails". 1 John 4 & 1 Corinthians 13.
If one cannot think biblically, then one cannot think logically.
Consider also that God's Word is infallible, and His Word is synonymous with His very nature, in fact God even says He m ...[text shortened]... l and a fruitless dead end endeavor.
p.s. Did you ignore my first post, or was it an oversight?
If one cannot think biblically, then one cannot think logically.
I'm simply not going to accept that sentence. In the context of a debate about whether claims concerning the nature of God then it's even more problematic - what do you mean by "think biblically"?
Do you think that you can provide coherent arguments against the Law of Non-Contradiction in rationalist terms? In other words demonstrate that para-consistent logic is in play in a situation in which its application is not necessary because of possibly faulty information, but because reality is in some way inconsistent.
p.s. Did you ignore my first post, or was it an oversight?
It's a good idea to tailor your statements to your audience, if you are in a debate with someone with a rationalistic outlook then statements such as:
God knew before creating everything. The fact that God regretted isn't a symptom of a fault, but instead a lesson for man.
are going to have a rather limited impact.
Besides which your statement does not answer Ghost's point - if the text says that God regretted making Saul the anointed one then it implies a lack of foreknowledge, this implies that God's omniscience is not complete.
Regarding the body of your post. "Love never fails." - 1 Corinthians 13 AKJV does not contain those words. It does contain the words:
And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
1 Corinthians 13:13
So which version of the Bible are you relying on?
The Psalms are poetry and I do not see the relevance of your quotation from Matthew 5:18. The rest of your post just reads as sanctimony.
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22 Jan 20
@secondson saidNot ignored any post intentionally. Will locate and address it later today.
p.s. Did you ignore my first post, or was it an oversight?
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22 Jan 20
1 edit
@secondson saidI'll put the same analogy to you that I put to Kelly:
How is regretting a fault?
But God doesn't "regret" in the same way as you and I.
God knew before creating everything. The fact that God regretted isn't a symptom of a fault, but instead a lesson for man.
If I knew to give a kitten a thimble to play with would result in him choosing to swallow it and choke I simply wouldn't give the kitten the thimble in the first place. (Rather than regretting it afterwards).
'Regretting' is very much a fault in a being who has fore knowledge and the ability to prevent a bad thing from happening, but chooses not to. There is no profound lesson in this. As God sees everything coming and has the power to prevent it, there is no reason God should be in a position of regretting anything.