Immortality and the human condition

@pb1022 said
If I did something bad toward someone, I would expect them to do something bad to me in return.Therefore if someone does something bad to me, I could justify doing something bad to them.

The much more challenging teaching is to love your enemies and not repay evil with evil but overcome evil with good.

It's a rough world out there. You can interpret “In everything, do to others what you would have them do to you” as you see fit.

@fmf said
I think everything attributed to him was written by people decades after his death. Many of them were probably sincere.

You must dispute the authorship of the Gospel of John, which is the Gospel that seems to have the most supernatural statements from Jesus in it (as well as claims of His deity.)

@fmf said
I think everything attributed to him was written by people decades after his death. Many of them were probably sincere.

You must also dispute authorship of the writings of the Apostle Paul, who wrote most of the New Testament and who claimed to have an encounter with the Resurrected Christ on the Road to Damascus?

And that encounter caused Paul to do a 180 and change from being one of the worst persecutors of early Christians to being one of their greatest advocates and defenders.

On what basis do you dispute that the Apostle John wrote the Gospel of John and 1 John and on what basis do you dispute that the Apostle Paul wrote all of those epistles to churches?

@pb1022 said
You must dispute the authorship of the Gospel of John, which is the Gospel that seems to have the most supernatural statements from Jesus in it (as well as claims of His deity.)

I am not a Christian and I believe we can only speculate about supernatural things. Such speculation is part and parcel of the human condition and, to tie this back to the OP, I think basing theological narratives on the aspirations that such speculation fosters ~ things like the "deduction" that we are immortal ~ is part and parcel of the human condition as well.

@fmf said
As I said, a principle like “...in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you” is persuasive regardless of who thought of it.

But the person who thought of it is certainly due credit, no? And you didn’t really answer my question as to whether you think all the supernatural statements and actions attributed to Jesus were fabricated by writers.

@pb1022 said
You must also dispute authorship of the writings of the Apostle Paul, who wrote most of the New Testament and who claimed to have an encounter with the Resurrected Christ on the Road to Damascus?

That's right, I don't subscribe to the claims that Paul made about himself.

@fmf said
It's a rough world out there. You can interpret “In everything, do to others what you would have them do to you” as you see fit.

It wasn’t so much an interpretation as a thought experiment.

@pb1022 said
And you didn’t really answer my question as to whether you think all the supernatural statements and actions attributed to Jesus were fabricated by writers.

As I said, I am sure some of them or many of them, even, were sincere in their belief that what they were writing was not a fabrication.

@fmf said
I am not a Christian and I believe we can only speculate about supernatural things. Such speculation is part and parcel of the human condition and, to tie this back to the OP, I think basing theological narratives on the aspirations that such speculation fosters ~ things like the "deduction" that we are immortal ~ is part and parcel of the human condition as well.

I don’t think you have to be a Christian to have an opinion on who Jesus Christ was/is.

If I’m understanding you correctly, you think He was a good teacher and wise man and anything supernatural that was attributed to Him was fabricated by writers of the New Testament.

I’m not sure yet on what basis you make that claim of fabrication.

@fmf said
As I said, I am sure some of them or many of them, even, were sincere in their belief that what they were writing was not a fabrication.

But in the case of the Apostle John and the Apostle Peter and the Apostle Paul, these are eyewitnesses. So it’s not, in your view, that they were sincere in what they wrote; they must have been lying. Isn’t that right?

If I say I saw something I didn’t see, I’m lying, aren’t I?

@pb1022 said
If I’m understanding you correctly, you think He was a good teacher and wise man and anything supernatural that was attributed to Him was fabricated by writers of the New Testament.

Some of the ideas attributed to him resonate and probably, in part, explain the success of the cult of personality [and identity] that was centred on him decades after he died.

@pb1022 said
But in the case of the Apostle John and the Apostle Peter and the Apostle Paul, these are eyewitnesses. So it’s not, in your view, that they were sincere in what they wrote; they must have been lying. Isn’t that right?

I have no way of knowing if they were eye-witnesses or not.

@pb1022 said
I’m not sure yet on what basis you make that claim of fabrication.

The texts probably resulted from decades of 'chinese whispers' passed on by all manner of people and groups, and sub-groups, all in many respects in competition with each other; dozens of other supposedly 'eye witness accounts' rejected; nothing finalized until literally hundreds of years later, when corporate Christianity had finally finessed its fastidiously assembled text.

@pb1022 said
I don’t think you have to be a Christian to have an opinion on who Jesus Christ was/is.

I think he was probably a maverick rabbi who attracted a following because of his relatively progressive brand of Judaism but who was executed by the Romans for sedition.

@fmf said
I have no way of knowing if they were eye-witnesses or not.

Well they said they were eyewitnesses. So they were either eyewitnesses or they’re liars.

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us😉”

(1 John 1:1-2)

“Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:

After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.

And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.”

(1 Corinthians 15:1-9)

“For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.”

(2 Peter 1:16)