Illusions opinions reality

@fmf said
All you have is your personal opinion about what is "the truth" in these matters. All you can do is speculate. Same goes for me. Same goes for CalJust.

And yet we have to accept your personal opinion that no ones opinion is true as the truth? Hilarious.

@caljust said
First of all, we have to agree what this thing is that you call "duck".

In South Africa alone, we have at least ten different species of duck, for example:

Whitefaced duck Dendrocygna viduata
Fulvous duck Dendrocygna bicolor
Whitebacked duck Thalassornis leuconotus
Moccoa duck Oxymura maccoa
African Black duck ...[text shortened]... house duck , and claim that THIS is the only REAL duck, you will have a problem in discussing ducks.

I think now all you are doing is just looking for things to disagree with me about.
If I'm speaking about a duck as long as I'm saying things about the duck that are true in reality I'm talking truth about the duck. I don't care how many ducks there are, as long as I'm speaking to the reality of the one I'm talking about its truth. If I stray and start saying something not real about the duck in question, I'm no longer speaking truth. I said that already, and regardless of how many ways you are attempting to find something wrong, the only thing you are really doing is proving my point. I find that rather poetic.

As long as you push for truth by speaking towards reality, it is only true as long as you stay on the same page with reality. Not as long as you have an opinion when discussing ducks, religion, or anything else. It isn't our perspectives that allow us to speak truth, truth isn't having people agree with you, truth isn't because it fits your world view either, reality doesn't change with how we approach, it just our ability to see it, or not.

@CalJust
I'm not saying this of you, as a matter of fact I think you are a deceit person this is just to drive a point home not attack you, wanted there to be no misunderstanding. You know attempting to keep the topic on truth, LOL.

If someone hates another race, do you think they see clearly when looking at them? I don't, I think they look for ways to justify their hate. They would find every excuse to smear them no matter the truth of it. They would apply every wrong done by one to the whole, and ignore the good, or never apply the good to everyone of that same group as they do the hate.

Worse for them too, they could as the main reason they have to hate them in the first place is, they accuse the other group of being prejudice against their own race. Sadly they end up becoming the very thing they claim to hate in others. They will have no excuse for their prejudice seeing the have in themselves condemn the thing they said they hated.

Hate can blind our eyes, it becomes part of our filter for our world view. Any prejudice we bring alters our perceptions of reality. Sadly this means we all are blind in need of a light to shine on real truth not one that justifies our mindsets, I share the blindness and being in need.

This isn't something we can generate on our own, we need a flash light for our eyes, compass for direction, levels or plumb line for the horizontal and vertical. In other words we need things that will not require an interpretation of reality, that only leaves us with a false sense of security in our understanding.

@kellyjay said

If I'm speaking about a duck as long as I'm saying things about the duck that are true in reality I'm talking truth about the duck. I don't care how many ducks there are, as long as I'm speaking to the reality of the one I'm talking about its truth. If I stray and start saying something not real about the duck in question, I'm no longer speaking truth.

Actually, I find this example that you have chosen rather appropriate.

Hear yourself speaking: "As long as I am saying things about the duck that are true in reality, I'm talking about the duck...."

The problem s, what you are saying about the duck that you know is:

- It is white
- it is about 35 cm tall
- It gets fed grain
- It lives around people
- It is a favourite food for the Chinese from Peking

The more you talk about The Duck being REAL and your view of it is TRUE, and list all these attributes, the more you are wrong - for somebody that has a totally different picture as to what a duck is.

- It has colourful plumage
- It is about 25 cm tall
- It eats insects
- It lives in secretive wetlands and shuns people

Actually a brilliant example. I can assure you that both of these ducks are real.
I
So how do we solve the "duck problem"?

Well, if you are interested in ducks, maybe you should talk to somebody that has a different duck, and compare notes.

The maybe, just maybe, you both come to a new level of realisation that what you both have assumed until now, may not be the absolute and total truth about ducks.

@caljust said
Actually, I find this example that you have chosen rather appropriate.

Hear yourself speaking: "As long as I am saying things about the duck that are true in reality, I'm talking about the duck...."

The problem s, what you are saying about the duck that you know is:

- It is white
- it is about 35 cm tall
- It gets fed grain
- It lives around people
- It is ...[text shortened]... tion that what you both have assumed until now, may not be the absolute and total truth about ducks.

You are bound and determined to avoid the truth of reality can be understood without human agreement. I suppose that is why Jesus and everything about Him is such a fly in the ointment of your worldview. For one He is the “I AM”, therefore doesn’t require anyone to define Him since He transcends our universe therefore is without cause, making all of our opinions about Him without merit unless we grasp who He is. He deals strictly with the truth without error. He tells us how we should live, why we are, and answers all the questions that we have about life.

Unlike all the other human teachers of all faiths and disciplines they can be replaced with anyone else’ name it wouldn’t matter if they came up with the same stories and lines of thoughts. While Jesus is more than a teacher, He is also the message making Him singular in the human experience. The One who cannot be replaced with someone else, because none of us are who He is, the Son of God.

@kellyjay said

If someone hates another race, do you think they see clearly when looking at them? I don't, I think they look for ways to justify their hate. They would find every excuse to smear them no matter the truth of it.

This isn't something we can generate on our own, we need a flash light for our eyes, compass for direction, levels or plumb line for the horizontal and vertical. In other words we need things that will not require an interpretation of realit

Sorry, I think our two posts have crossed. I answered the "ducks" one and did not see the "race and prejudice" one. I will now attempt to answer the latter.

I totally agree with you that prejudice of any form makes us blind.

Yet every prejudice is based on some kind of worldview which in turn is based on some facts.

For example, the members of the KKK in the US probably had parents that taught them about the black race and why it is inferior. I know for a fact that the far-right extremists in SA based their superiority over blacks on the Bible - you know, the whole "hewers of wood and drawers of water" passage from Genesis about Noah and his three sons. (In this case Ham).

Why am I saying this? Because every racist or extremist has a reason for doing what he/she is doing. They have their own version of Truth.

Of course I agree with you that we should have an objective, True North moral compass THAT WE ALL AGREE WITH. Wouldn't that be wonderful? Mankind uniting as one.

The trouble is, as I am sure you know, that it is exactly because we all (or at least many of us) have our own True Moral Compass which differ from each other. And I am afraid here I am repeating myself yet again.....

When you call for "a flash light for our eyes, compass for direction, levels or plumb line...." you call for exactly the right thing. That is what we need.

Unfortunately, I suspect that what you personally would suggest for this plumbline or true standard, is the Bible and God. And as I have shown above (and, e.g. in the conflict in Northern Ireland etc etc) it is all between people that DO ACCEPT THE BIBLE AS STANDARD!!

But, as we all know, only their own particular interpretation of it.

So, back to the ducks. I realise my "duck" is the way in which I see and experience a very real, tangible duck. It truly is Reality. I grew up with them on the farm, saw their cute little chicks.

Yet, sad to say, not everybody sees things this way. They have their own "duck".

And I am most certainly NOT saying that all ducks are the same. But maybe there exists (in the Platonic sense) an Essence of Duck, which takes into account, and supersedes, all ducks?

Is this making any sense to you?

@caljust said
Sorry, I think our two posts have crossed. I answered the "ducks" one and did not see the "race and prejudice" one. I will now attempt to answer the latter.

I totally agree with you that prejudice of any form makes us blind.

Yet every prejudice is based on some kind of worldview which in turn is based on some facts.

For example, the members of the KKK in the US prob ...[text shortened]... ce of Duck, which takes into account, and supersedes, all ducks?

Is this making any sense to you?

I think in so many things I think we are in total agreement, others miles apart which is what to be excepted so no worries it is what it is. I will say this on our figuring out the truth with God and the Bible, without God the Bible doesn't help anyone. The Bible alone might as well be the Lord of the Rings its just a Book. So your views about the particular interpretations I'm in complete agreement, believe it or not, yes 100% agreement with you. For reasons already discussed, readers can take away anything they want from a book, any book they read, only the author knows the true intent or truth of the passages in question each time.

Yes, what you said does make sense, and I hope you see my points clearly too, at one time I thought we were in agreement than you surprised me, not a ding on you!

Getting back to God and the Bible, I think this is why the Holy Spirit is debunked by so many people here and elsewhere, He can come into us and change us into what we were designed for. So for some instead of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit they tend to go with Father, Son, and Holy Scriptures, mainly for the reason you brought up, they then can say what is acceptable and what isn't according to them. If they are saying what each verse means God could only get in the way of them having their own way, after all they are the standard of truth as they read without God, they have the power of knowing good and evil as they define it.

@KellyJay

Do you think that it is possible that you are wrong in one or more ways in which you interpret the Bible?

And that somebody else who interprets it differently may actually be right?

Even allowing for the fact the the Father, Son and Holy Spirit guides you?

@caljust said
@KellyJay

Do you think that it is possible that you are wrong in one or more ways in which you interpret the Bible?

And that somebody else who interprets it differently may actually be right?

Even allowing for the fact the the Father, Son and Holy Spirit guides you?

Oh yes! I'm as flawed as the next guy. Do I think it is possible God is not a trinity I have to say I'm convinced He is. Do I think God is real, I'm convinced He is. I think the truth of scripture, the reality around me, and the experiences of my life all show the same thing, God is real, personal, and has revealed Himself through scripture and life. These things I accept as true and they are foundational to my faith in God, should my foundation be question of course! Should the conclusions that I come to because of my world view be questioned of course. As I pointed out earlier, truth will not be dispelled by new information only confirmed, opinions may be forced to change reality never will.

Do these truths make my life easier, no not at all. Do they help me do the things I long for, or lust for, no not at all. What I lose in my life God more than makes up for in my walk with Him.

If we think the foundations of our world views should not be questioned, I think that shows we have no faith in our world views, that we worry they cannot stand up to real scrutiny. You can tell when it is occurring when someone gets angry over something they hold true are hit with honest questions, or when someone reacts in anger over some under pinning of their world view gets questioned. How dare we not attempt to answer these types of questions if we believe the truth is there for others to see?

It is also a sign of weakness in my opinion when so called questions are more about personal attacks than actual inquires.

@kellyjay said
If we think the foundations of our world views should not be questioned, I think that shows we have no faith in our world views, that we worry they cannot stand up to real scrutiny.

You probably have more difficulty with demonstrating that your beliefs can stand up to real scrutiny than almost any other poster here. You get huffy, you contradict yourself, you stop talking to people, you call them liars, you become evasive, and you sometimes try to kind-of-spam your way out of corners you have backed yourself into. What does that say about the "foundations of your worldview".

@fmf said
You probably have more difficulty with demonstrating that your beliefs can stand up to real scrutiny than almost any other poster here. You get huffy, you contradict yourself, you stop talking to people, you call them liars, you become evasive, and you sometimes try to kind-of-spam your way out of corners you have backed yourself into. What does that say about the "foundations of your worldview".

Oh the irony.

@KellyJay

I will let you have the last word.

As you said, we agree on some issues, but some we will not see eye-to-eye on.

CJ checking out of this thread.

@caljust said
@KellyJay

I will let you have the last word.

As you said, we agree on some issues, but some we will not see eye-to-eye on.

CJ checking out of this thread.

Thank you for your time!

@fmf said
You probably have more difficulty with demonstrating that your beliefs can stand up to real scrutiny than almost any other poster here. You get huffy, you contradict yourself, you stop talking to people, you call them liars, you become evasive, and you sometimes try to kind-of-spam your way out of corners you have backed yourself into. What does that say about the "foundations of your worldview".

Do you honestly think that your beliefs can stand up to even the slightest scrutiny?

@dj2becker said
Do you honestly think that your beliefs can stand up to even the slightest scrutiny?

Scrutiny should be demanded for every belief system, or every world view.
How do you show flaws in any world view to the point of showing its fake?
Can it even be done, or are all world views really just my opinion verses your opinion?