Originally posted by sonshipI suppose the point is, you tell us our God figure imposes vengeful and angry punishment on those who don't believe the same things as you just so happen to believe.
What would be the point of it ?
Therefore, it's interesting how you just slip something that is arguably psychologically and philosophically invalid into what you say about belief ~ how one must "decide" to believe something ~ and you do this so casually.
Do you think you could somehow "decide" to believe the same things as Jews or Muslims believe?
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
Originally posted by FMF
Do you genuinely think that people can "decide" to believe something that they simply do not believe?
Do you genuinely think that people can "decide" to believe something that they simply do not believe?
One can believe some portion, and decide to act on that portion that he believes, perhaps.
For example, I wrote a thread on "Why God is not Real to You".
In that thread I tried to labor on how the matter of one's sins separates him from the enjoyment of God subjectively.
One can say " Well, I do not believe or understand the depth of so much systematic theology and philosophy. But I realize that I have sinned. At least here and there, I have sinned. And I can confess my sins that I know to God. I can at least admit that I am a sinner."
The question is not new. The Old Testament records similar dilemmas.
Some people have trouble because they have a complicated heart with too many goals.
"Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God." (Matt. 5:8)
This means to be simple and single in goal. One just wants one thing. One just desires a single matter, to have God.
So to your question, I would say, confession of one's sins (which incidently we often love and cannot stand the thought of forsaking). And one should have a single heart united for a simple and single thing here - to come to God.
"Pure in heart" here is to uncomplicate your heart. "Pure in heart" is to set aside complications of many varied motives. To be single in intention.
Do you genuinely think that people can "decide" to believe something that they simply do not believe?
It is not an easy question. I have tried to offer some help. I believe some people will be helped by it.
I could say more.
Originally posted by sonshipI am not asking you about people who already have some belief in Christian notions of "sin", "sinning" and "sinners". I am talking about whether you think someone who simply does not believe in these notions can "decide" to do so despite not believing there's any truth to them?
One can say " Well, I do not believe or understand the depth of so much systematic theology and philosophy. But I realize that I have sinned. At least here and there, I have sinned. And I can confess my sins that I know to God. I can at least admit that I am a sinner."
Originally posted by sonshipI could say more.Do you genuinely think that people can "decide" to believe something that they simply do not believe?
One can believe some portion, and decide to act on that portion that he believes, perhaps.
For example, I wrote a thread on "Why God is not Real to You".
In that thread I tried to labor on how the matter of one's sins separates him ...[text shortened]... ed to offer some help. I believe some people will be helped by it.
I could say more.
seriously?
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
I suppose the point is, you tell us our God figure imposes vengeful and angry punishment on those who don't believe the same things as you just so happen to believe.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FMF, we have had many debates.
The problem I see in your sentence here is the thought that God should recuse Himself from judgment because there is His personal vested interest in a relationship.
"God should not judge. If God judges then it can only be because He is personally offended at something."
This is the thought that someone else should be the final moral governor of the universe.
And because there is no one else with that authority or that power, resentment towards God is had.
"He condemns me because He is vindictive. God's love is not that bad. But for God to also be be a judge mixes up the personal feeling with the matter."
I have come to believe that God should not have to recuse Himself from judgment because He loves us and seeks our love in return. I see on Calvary the coordination of these two aspects of God together. That is His great love and His great judgment from His perfect righteous being.
Therefore, it's interesting how you just slip something that is arguably psychologically and philosophically invalid into what you say about belief ~ how one must "decide" to believe something ~ and you do this so casually.
Do you think you could somehow "decide" to believe the same things as Jews
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I do decide to believe the same things as Jews in some regards.
Originally posted by sonshipBut I have said nothing of the sort. Do you think I can just "decide" to believe that "someone else should be the final moral governor of the universe [aside from your God figure]" even though I simply do not believe this?
This is the thought that someone else should be the final moral governor of the universe.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
Do you think you could somehow "decide" to believe the same things as Jews or Muslims believe?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I decide to believe that there is one God.
So I share that belief of both Orthodox Jews and Muslims.
I have gone on to receive this one God as my Lord and Savior.
Spend a year and ask as many Jews and Moslems you know - "But do you know God?"
If they tell you that they know how to fast, how to pray, which direction to face in prayer, how to eat, how to give alms, how to kneel, how do many things, that is not the answer to the question.
Okay, ask those Christians you wish to ask also. Same question, No problem.
Do they know ABOUT God? Or do they know God?
That is the point.
Don't argue with me. God spend the time to ask whoever you wish " Well, Do you know God?"
Many crowded around Jesus, mobbing Him. One woman touched Him.
Something of Himself flowed out of Him and heal her.
Many are crowded around God with much information about God.
Fewer touch the Person of God.
This passage shows a most intimtate mingling and blending of God's Person with a man's innermost being in a way of life union.
"He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit." (1 Cor. 6:17)
That is exceedingly intimate and subjective.
There is a class of things which is truth and "true truth". Yet it is also very intimate and very subjective.
Originally posted by sonshipI see the quotation marks. Who do you claim to be quoting here?
"God should not judge. If God judges then it can only be because He is personally offended at something." [...]
"He condemns me because He is vindictive. God's love is not that bad. But for God to also be be a judge mixes up the personal feeling with the matter."
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
But I have said nothing of the sort. Do you think I can just "decide" to believe that "someone else should be the final moral governor of the universe [aside from your God figure]" even though I simply do not believe this?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Okay.
You simply do not believe in this "God figure."
I understand that.
Originally posted by sonshipBut you don't seem to understand the question. If I don't believe the claims you make about your God figure, do you think it's psychologically or philosophically valid to insist that I can simply "decide" to believe when in fact I don't?
Okay.
You simply do not believe in this "God figure."
I understand that.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
Originally posted by FMFYou can make a blank and fill in the blank with whatever you wish.
Could you "decide" to believe what polytheists believe?
"Could you decide to believe what ______________________ believes?"
You can argue that Jesus Christ is common and like any other belief in any other thing.
Pursue that line if you wish.
" To believe in Jesus, WHY that is the same as believing in ____________".
If it makes you feel secure to argue that Christ is not at all unique, take refuge in that rationalization. Me? I recognize that Jesus is not quite like anything or anyone else.
Originally posted by sonshipBut you are a Christian, so obviously you believe that Jesus is not quite like anything or anyone else. I am not seeking "refuge" or seeking to feel "secure". I am curious as to whether you realize how heavily your ministry relies on a psychologically bogus implicit assertion: that people can somehow choose or decide to believe things that they don't believe.
If it makes you feel secure to argue that Christ is not at all unique, take refuge in that rationalization. Me? I recognize that Jesus is not quite like anything or anyone else.