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30 Jan 19
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I am confronting them about the psychological and moral nonsense of the effect of fear on non-believers. And you are... doing what... confronting me about the beliefs of KellyJay and sonship?
The fact has been that for two thousand years people have turned from unbelief to belief. All have not. But multitudes have.
Many of these millions did not need fancy explanations to allow them to know that they sinners. They availed themselves to forgiveness offered and many had lives changed.
If FMF says "Of what use is the gospel to unbelievers" it makes the point that some people will remain in unbelief and not find forgiveness forever.
That is a choice one can make, they will hope that it makes no difference what they have done.
30 Jan 19
@sonship saidThat's fine by me. At least I explain what I believe.
And I find your explanations of how the New Testament was written and related church history to be conspiracy theories and excuses.
The two questions you are still dodging are:
What is the moral purpose of threatening to torture non-believers for eternity if they are non-believers and they find the assertions of Christians not credible.?
What would then be the moral purpose of torturing non-believers for eternity in secret after they die if the still-living non-believers do not know about it?
The question is about the logic of projecting fear and non-credible threats, coercion and deterrence, belief and lack of belief.
30 Jan 19
@sonship saidThis is still dodging the psychological and moral nonsense of the effect of fear on non-believers.
The fact has been that for two thousand years people have turned from unbelief to belief. All have not. But multitudes have.
Many of these millions did not need fancy explanations to allow them to know that they sinners. They availed themselves to forgiveness offered and many had lives changed.
If FMF says "Of what use is the gospel to unbelievers" it makes the poi ...[text shortened]...
That is a choice one can make, they will hope that it makes no difference what they have done.
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30 Jan 19
1 edit
"Devil"?
"Antichrist"?
"False prophet"?
Those are three beings of whom we are explicitly told go to be tormented day and night forever and ever.
There are many instances of the gospel being presented to men. Not all of them involve mentioning eternal punishment.
When you chase a Christian around begging for more discusssion about it, that does not mean that that Christian sees nothing else in the Bible.
That just says that the skeptic never tires of trying to convince himself that that matter can be ignored.
Ie.
"Talk about it.
Talk about it more.
Talk about it more.
Talk about it more.
...
That's all your belief is about. "
Yet if the Christian introduces other vital subjects, guess what? It's more of -
"Talk about it.
Talk about it more
Talk about it more.
...
Your belief is full of threats to me."
30 Jan 19
@sonship saidSurely, for the word "rebels" to have any coherent meaning whatsoever in the context of 'belief and lack of belief', it must refer to believers who do not follow the rules of their professed religion?
The purpose of placing all the rebels in the same place is that they lose. They go with their leader to share his miserable place forever.
You are - as usual - contorting the meaning of words with the 'power' of begs-the-question and circular reasoning logical fallacies. It is sophistry on your part.
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30 Jan 19
@sonship
Not sure how you managed to reply to me several times in a row and yet not address any of the points in this post:
'It's not about the Bible or what 'you' think personally. When we discuss Reincarnation as it is understood by those who believe in such a concept (whether they be Hindu or otherwise) it is what 'they' believe that matters. - Why is that even a point of discussion?
Reincarnation involves the same soul being reborn in a cycle of rebirth until enlightenment ends this process. Reincarnation (and karma) would make absolutely no sense if this continuation of the soul did not take place. - Contemplate on that as much as you like, it won't enable you to re-write the meaning of reincarnation.
How would you feel if I repeatedly misrepresented an important concept from Christianity, even after being informed of my error?'
30 Jan 19
@sonship saidBut they are non-credible threats. Surely the ideology that has been constructed around the god figure you worship gives you something that makes more sense than demanding that non-believers fear threats they do not believe in?
@FMF
"Devil"?
"Antichrist"?
"False prophet"?
Those are three beings of whom we are explicitly told go to be tormented day and night forever and ever.
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30 Jan 19
2 edits
Surely, for the word "rebels" to have any coherent meaning whatsoever in the context of 'belief and lack of belief', it must refer to believers who do not follow the rules of their professed religion?
I don't care about your "lack of belief". The universe has a Governor. The universe has an Authority.
There are natural laws by which it is governed.
There are moral laws by which it is governed.
When you say "Hey that is not fair" you consent that you believe that there are moral absolutes. You just have no basis to locate their source since you don't believe there is an ultimate moral governor - God.
You are - as usual - contorting the meaning of words with the 'power' of begs-the-question and circular reasoning logical fallacies. It is sophistry on your part.
Every philosophy and world view has some amount of circular reasoning, some argue.
Don't think you are not involved in circular reasoning.
With God since He is the source and destination of all things, I think some circularity is going to happen. From Him and to Him and unto Him are all things.
You like to always be on the examining end of discussion here. When asked questions about what you believe instead, you dodge and shift and say you're not here promoting anything.
If you ever had the courage to teach something rather than always putting others on the defensive it would be shown that your Atheism is based on circular reasoning a lot.
When God says "I am the Beginning and the End" that calls for some cosmic circularity.
When God says "I am the Alpha and the Omega" or "The First and the Last"m I think that involves us all in some cosmic circularity.
When Jesus is Him "Who is and Who was and Who is to come" I think that involves all of us created beings in some circularity. We come from God and to God we are ultimately unto.
That's just the way it is. At least we can arrive Justified, Redeemed, Reconciled, and loved eternally - recipients of His grace and mercy.
You go with your belief and see how it works out.
30 Jan 19
@sonship saidYou are misusing the word "rebels". You are being dishonest by using the word in the way you have.
@FMF
Surely, for the word "rebels" to have any coherent meaning whatsoever in the context of 'belief and lack of belief', it must refer to believers who do not follow the rules of their professed religion?
I don't care about your "lack of belief". The universe has a Governor. The universe has an Authority.
There are natural laws by which it is go ...[text shortened]... ternally - recipients of His grace and mercy.
You go with your belief and see how it works out.
You are misusing the word "rebels".
You are using it dishonestly.
30 Jan 19
@sonship saidHave you seen a film called Dr Strangelove?
@FMF
Surely, for the word "rebels" to have any coherent meaning whatsoever in the context of 'belief and lack of belief', it must refer to believers who do not follow the rules of their professed religion?
I don't care about your "lack of belief". The universe has a Governor. The universe has an Authority.
There are natural laws by which it is go ...[text shortened]... ternally - recipients of His grace and mercy.
You go with your belief and see how it works out.