@fmf saidThat's not what I was inferring.
Are you saying that Christian politicians deliberately lying, and believing they will be forgiven for it, is "a load of BS"?
Your OP is a load of bs.
If your OP had been stated as a question I could have answered it, but you posed it as a statement of fact, which doesn't leave much room for discussion. It comes off as a hypothetical statement.
So here's a hypothetical question: if you were God, and some fool claims to be one of yours, and you, being God, can read his mind, and he thinks he can willfully lie because he thinks you will forgive him for it later when he repents, what would you do?
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@divegeester saidWas it a snake, or was it a serpent?
Was the snake in the garden of Eden literal, or not?
286d
@josephw saidIt's a proposition which you were invited to discuss. There's all the "room" you want.
If your OP had been stated as a question I could have answered it, but you posed it as a statement of fact, which doesn't leave much room for discussion. It comes off as a hypothetical statement.
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@josephw saidWell, doesn't the Christian theology say that one will be forgiven of the repentance is sincere?
So here's a hypothetical question: if you were God, and some fool claims to be one of yours, and you, being God, can read his mind, and he thinks he can willfully lie because he thinks you will forgive him for it later when he repents, what would you do?
@fmf saidIF the repentance is sincere. By definition, the idea that one can "get out" of some kind of afterlife of punishment by "repenting" at the last minute means they aren't exactly sincere in their repentance. Even your title of the thread says "Dishonest".
Well, doesn't the Christian theology say that one will be forgiven of the repentance is sincere?
This is why I initially brought up Pascal's Wager. Same concept. One cannot fool God.
@suzianne saidThis thread is not about "fooling God". If it were about "insincerity", then I would have said so in the OP.
IF the repentance is sincere. By definition, the idea that one can "get out" of some kind of afterlife of punishment by "repenting" at the last minute means they aren't exactly sincere in their repentance. Even your title of the thread says "Dishonest".
This is why I initially brought up Pascal's Wager. Same concept. One cannot fool God.
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@fmf saidThis is actually not so true.
Christian politicians, regardless of being on the left or right, can deliberately lie in the course of their political activities safe in the "knowledge" [i.e. belief] that Christ sacrificed his life to forgive their sins and they can repent later.
Discuss
They say that one of the key parts of the the sin against the holy spirit is actually the idea that you can do a sin that you will simply be forgiven for later, and thus very consciously sin.... Resting in "forgiveness."
Check this out:
[video]?si=ThKWERh0JbogVaUY&t=709[/video]
"To become either despondent before the Holy Spirit, that's one of the unforgivabel sins... The other is to feel so entitled or so carefree in your spiritual life that, because God is love, y ou end up abusing that love again and again with no regards to Christ's sacrifice for us, making a mockery of His Crucifixion, His Blood on that cross and His BOdy on that cross...."
That constitute the two sins against the Holy Spirit.
He emphasizes that these are the oldest, most original interpretations of how Christians can sin against the Holy Spirit through their actions.
[1] ?si=ThKWERh0JbogVaUY&t=709
@philokalia saidSo if politicians deliberately lie in the course of their political activities, and they repent later as their religious faith requires they will not be forgiven... because they will have been "sins against the Holy Spirit"? Is that what you mean when you say the OP is "not so true"?
This is actually not so true.
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@fmf saidCheck out what he is talking about in the 10 minute mark: if a man returned to his father after grave sins and violations, and simply stated, OK, here I am now. I am ready to do good. Clean me up, wash me up; forgive me..!" with a sense of entitlement, can we say that such a man is truly penitent?
So if politicians deliberately lie in the course of their political activities, and they repent later as their religious faith requires they will not be forgiven... because they will have been "sins against the Holy Spirit"? Is that what you mean when you say the OP is "not so true"?
Is that true contrition?
Look at the example of the story of the prodigal son: he returns to his father willing to function as a servant, falling to his feet, noting how unworthy he is.... This is the point of true repentance for his dissolute life.
As to whether or not a man has actually reached such a threshhold is something that only God Himself can determine, knowing the true workings of the heart that are iinside of a man...
But the point is really the same: those that deny the efficacy of the Holy Spirit and game it are committing the unforgivable sin. Some people are doing it, certainly, and will before their deaths claim to have repented for a thing, or have ticked a box by asking forgiveness, but really have allowed themselves those sins with zero intention of changing and with the full knowledge that what they do is wrong... Which is unforgivable. ^^
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@philokalia saidWhy not just answer FMF’s question instead of all this hemming and hawing?
Check out what he is talking about in the 10 minute mark: if a man returned to his father after grave sins and violations, and simply stated, OK, here I am now. I am ready to do good. Clean me up, wash me up; forgive me..!" with a sense of entitlement, can we say that such a man is truly penitent?
Is that true contrition?
Look at the example of the story of ...[text shortened]... tion of changing and with the full knowledge that what they do is wrong... Which is unforgivable. ^^