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Sorry but all you monotheist’s look alike to me.
Maybe you're not as flexible as you think.
I don’t have an objection to the soul, Intellectually I can see the purpose it serves a dogma based god model but not any actual evidence for it.
I didn't ask you about the purpose, the usage, the contribution to dogma.
I simply am trying to see if you are a total materialists.
You seem to be implying that a failure to adhere to a pre existing model of god or gods is an atheistic stance but it obviously isn’t.
God or gods does not come into the picture just yet.
Is your "soul" (if you have a soul) simply material ?
Yes - your soul is material?
No - your soul is something else non-material?
@sonship saidWell please pose your questions more succinctly.
@kevcvs57
Sorry but all you monotheist’s look alike to me.
Maybe you're not as flexible as you think.
I don’t have an objection to the soul, Intellectually I can see the purpose it serves a dogma based god model but not any actual evidence for it.
I didn't ask you about the purpose, the usage, the contribution to dogma.
I simpl ...[text shortened]... erial ?
Yes - your soul is material?
No - your soul is something else non-material?
Not accepting the existence of the ‘soul’ created by, and for, your particular monotheistic god model has nothing to do with my stance on materialism either way, does it?
@sonship said“ Yes - your soul is material?
@kevcvs57
Sorry but all you monotheist’s look alike to me.
Maybe you're not as flexible as you think.
I don’t have an objection to the soul, Intellectually I can see the purpose it serves a dogma based god model but not any actual evidence for it.
I didn't ask you about the purpose, the usage, the contribution to dogma.
I simpl ...[text shortened]... erial ?
Yes - your soul is material?
No - your soul is something else non-material?
No - your soul is something else non-material?”
I do not believe in the existence of the soul because it seems to be inexplicably tied to a model of reality that I do not believe is correct.
I’m not sure non existent things are open to the question you are posing in regard to being material or otherwise.
@medullah saidThat’s the aspect of it that is so handy for dogma based religions. If we have no soul who or what is the judgemental god going to reward or punish as a consequence of our adherence or non adherence to the dogma.
@kevcvs57
My understanding is the reference to soul in the scriptures is often misinterpreted as something that wafts away on death or can be traded; whereas in fact it is the entirety of the body, hence you can have both live and dead souls .
It’s all too convenient for me.
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@medullah saidThis is not entirely true. The prophecy concerning Christs' death shows that:
@kevcvs57
My understanding is the reference to soul in the scriptures is often misinterpreted as something that wafts away on death or can be traded; whereas in fact it is the entirety of the body, hence you can have both live and dead souls .
His soul - (He) would not be abandoned in Hades AND
His flesh body would not see corruption.
" . . . concerning the resurrection of Christ, that neither was He abandoned to Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption." (Acts 2:31)
According to the Lord's words the soul could survive death producing violence to the physical body.
"And do not fear those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna." (Matt. 10:28)
Man can damage the human body even to inflict death.
But man can do no more.
God can go further to do something to the soul.
The two - soul and body are not synonymous here.
The souls of bodies may be preserved somewhere awaiting judgment after the body has been destroyed as is the case in the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah (Jude 7; 2 Pet. 2:4-9):
" . . . God did not spare the angels who sinned but delivered them to gloomy pits, having cast them down to Tartarus, they being kept for judgment . . .
And having reduced to ashes the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, condemned them to ruin, having set them as an example to those who intend to live an ungodly life, . . . the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of trial and how to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment." (2 Pet. 2:6,9)
Particularly evil angels are being kept for judgment.
And in like manner the souls of the judged in the overthrow of Sodom and Gomorrah are being kept "under punishment for the day of judgment"
It is completely consistent isn't it?
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The Bible speaks of the physical body as both a dwelling place (or temple, or taberncalce) and clothing.
Now when the body dies, Paul said we are "unclothed".
The imagery is of the body being the outward clothing and the soul being that
which has cloths of the body on.
He didn't say at death the soul is gone but "found naked".
"For we know that if our earthly tabernacle dwelling is taken down ... " (2 Cor. 5:1a)
He is saying that dying is like taking down a temporary earthly tabernacle tent.
" . . . we have a building from God, a dwelling not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."
Suffice it now just to say Christians who physically die lose their earthly tabernacle but await a heavenly tabernacle (ie. a glorified resurrected body). Right now, just grasp the concept of our body being a tent and our soul the dwelling within the tent.
"For also in this we groan, longing to be clothed upon with our dwelling place from heaven. Indeed, being clothed, we will not be found naked." (vs. 2,3)
He is saying Christians long for their glorified resurrected body. This new glorious body will cloth us and our souls will not be found unclothed or naked.
So you see how the soul and the body are thought of as the inward contents covered with the outward container?
"For also, we who are in this tabernacle . . . "
Meaning we who are presently physically alive and with a physical body.
"being burdened, in that we do not desire to be unclothed, but clothed upon, that what is mortal may be swallowed up in life." (v.4)
The Christian should not desire to be naked and unclothed without a body.
But he should eagerly expect a new resurrection body of glorification to cloth him and totally swallow up mortality in divine and eternal life.
This means also that to appear in heaven with an unclothed soul having no body is not desirable to the Christian or to God. It is abnormal and to be found "naked". Rather whether the believer dies or is physically alive when Jesus comes his earthly tabernacle, his body is to be glorified clothing his soul in a body like Jesus has now.
I'll be back.
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Not only in the New Testament book do we see this concept:
That is the SOUL is somehow CLOTHED with the body and can exist abnormally though without it.
The oldest book in the Bible Job has the Abrahamic time patriarch Job somehow know to utter the same thing.
Job 19:26 -
"But I know that my Redeemer lives, And at the last He will stand upon the earth; And after this body of mine is destroyed, Outside my flesh I will look on God, Whom I, even I, will look on for myself. And my eyes will see; I, and no other."
Somehow Job believed it must be that though his physical body be destroyed with his physical eyes . . . STILL, outside of his physical body he, he himself would see God.
If Job's expectation is true it corresponds to Paul writing about the soul being unclothed and naked (though not to be desired or normal) as a human possibility.
@sonship saidWhich doesn't change anything. My words are still good.
This is not entirely true. The prophecy concerning Christs' death shows that:
His soul - (He) would not be abandoned in Hades AND
His flesh body would not see corruption.
" . . . concerning the resurrection of Christ, that neither was He abandoned to Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption." (Acts 2:31)
@sonship saidThe soul can die
Not only in the New Testament book do we see this concept:
That is the SOUL is somehow CLOTHED with the body and can exist abnormally though without it.
Job 7:15 So that my soul chooseth strangling, and death rather than my life. (king James)
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The soul can die
Job 7:15 So that my soul chooseth strangling, and death rather than my life. (king James)
The soul is the seat of the mind, the emotion, and the will. The will ( a component of the soul) therefore has the deciding and choosing function.
I think Job 7:15 simply says his soul (specifically his will) could choose death.
Paul also could choose death. And if he did he would be present with the Lord not in a state of non-existence.
" . . . I do not know what I will CHOOSE. But I am constrained between the two, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for this is far better; " (Phil. 1:22,23)
Just like Job Paul could exercise his will to CHOOSE death if he wanted.
For him to choose death however meant he (his soul) would be with Christ.
The dying thief next to Jesus also died though not by choice.
Unless you flat out don't believe the New Testament, on the DAY he died he went
with Jesus into Paradise.
"And He said to him, Truly I say to you, Today you shall be with Me in Paradise.' (Luke. 23:43)
If the Lord meant "Today we will not exist" I think He would have said that.
And I don't think Christ referred to the non-existence of the soul as Paradise.
The soul is the nous; or, it is what contains the nous.
The spirit can be used in a way that is the same as the soul, but it can also just be a very general, literary word meant to talk about the essence of a thing and the sentimental, metaphysical side of a thing generally.
Of course, this is all disputable.
We're talking about words, after all.
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The spirit can be used in a way that is the same as the soul, but it can also just be a very general, literary word meant to talk about the essence of a thing and the sentimental, metaphysical side of a thing generally.
At present for me, the distinction between the soul of man and the spirit of man is a progressive revelation becoming more clear as salvation is progressively revealed. As scripture advances from Genesis on into the NT the need for distinction between the human soul and human spirit is unveiled more.
In the Old Testament the distinction is not always so clear. But as full salvation in Christ is revealed so the distinction is more stark.
Three parts of man - "And may the God of peace sanctify your wholly, and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Thess. 5:23)
Just as the conjunction "and" joins the three of " . . . baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" (Matt.28:19) shows the one God triune 1 Thess. 5:23 shows the one created man tripartite.
And soul and spirit can be detected as having a division though they constitute one living man.
The word of God detects the division - "For the word of God is living and operative and sharper than any two-edge sword, and piercing even to the dividing of soul and spirit . . . " (Heb. 4:12)
That's enough for this post.