@divegeester said
What nonsense is this. What about most of the OT characters?

So that's your reply to this? "Satan uses force to influence, but God does not."

The "force" Satan uses are lies and deception to cause one to turn away from God to himself. It's a simple truth of the Bible.

God does not force anyone to believe in Him, but instead implores one to choose to receive from Him eternal life. God doesn't force anyone against their will, but Satan does by use of the lie.

I don't know what your reference to "OT characters" has to do with it. It tells me though how easily and quickly you lose and misinterpret the context of the posts you reply to.

@secondson said
God does not force anyone to believe in Him, but instead implores one to choose to receive from Him eternal life. God doesn't force anyone against their will, but Satan does by use of the lie.

The everpresent element of 'eternal torment in burning flames' in Christian ideology is clearly some kind of coercion through the threat of unimaginable and demented cruelty and violence. That's a form of "force". The fact it is morally incoherent indicates that it's just a man-made set of superstitious beliefs.

@secondson said
You're willingly rejecting Christ because you believe the lie that Jesus didn't rise from the dead.

It's true that I don't believe Jesus rose from the dead but I don't see how anyone has "lied" to me about it. I just don't find the claims Christians make about what happened after he was executed by the Romans credible that's all.

@fmf said
Thanks for your response. Your fellow Christian Suzianne says that what you believe in this matter seems quite stupid to her on the face of it but she won't confront you about it because she says she doesn't "argue with children". However, she won't say that to you. She will only say it to me. But you can read it too.

"It seems quite stupid to me on the face of it.
I don't argue with children when they claim to be slaying a dragon with their cardboard sword, either."

Is that where you got the "quite stupid" and "argue with children" in your post above?

If so, then your post is a perfect example of how you mischaracterize posters intent and meaning in this forum. Quite disingenuous and deceptive.

Suzianne and I cross swords from time to time, but she never told me I was stupid or childlike where we disagree. Suzianne is doctrinally solid in the essentials relative to the scriptures in the main.

So just exactly what is it with regards to this question of the influence of Satan that you think suzianne and I disagree?

@secondson said
Why mention it?

Because the way she uses an atheist like me as a proxy to express her disagreement with you is very interesting,

@secondson said
So just exactly what is it with regards to this question of the influence of Satan that you think suzianne and I disagree?

Two possibilities: you ask her or you read what she posts.

@secondson said
Suzianne and I cross swords from time to time, but she never told me I was stupid or childlike where we disagree.

Exactly.

@fmf said
It's true that I don't believe Jesus rose from the dead but I don't see how anyone has "lied" to me about it. I just don't find the claims Christians make about what happened after he was executed by the Romans credible that's all.

I understand that's what you think. I understand you don't believe the Bible. I understand you perfectly.

What you appear to misunderstand is that what you "think" or "believe" or "not believe" is based on unbelief, and not on the truth of the Bible.

The Bible says this, and you say that. One of you is wrong.

All you need to do is take God at His Word. When you do an entirely new light of understanding will pervade your whole being. I remember the "spiritual" shock when I was "born again" so many decades ago. I didn't know an epistle from an apostle.

And it was a shock when I realized that what I thought I knew was truth turned out to be just lies.

@secondson said
The Bible says this, and you say that. One of you is wrong.

Well, I am not a Christian so I don't believe the Bible is right about this.

@secondson said
So just exactly what is it with regards to this question of the influence of Satan that you think suzianne and I disagree?

FMF: Do Christians here believe that the philosophical stance or state [as it were] of 'not believing that Jesus physically rose from the dead' is literally a symptom and result of supernatural influence ~ or more specifically, Satanic influence?

Suzianne: No. Well, at least I don't. I'm not gonna speak for anyone else. There's at least a non-negative chance that someone here might believe that.

FMF: You've read thousands of my posts so you know what I believe and what I don't believe. I do not believe that Jesus physically rose from the dead. In my case, of course, there is the added fact that I used to believe that He did. Do you believe in a case like mine that me not believing that Jesus physically rose from the dead is the result of Satanic influence?

Suzianne: I said, no, I don't believe that.

Meanwhile...

SecondSon: You're willingly rejecting Christ because you believe the lie that Jesus didn't rise from the dead. Consequently, that places you as a willing participant in satan's rebellion.

@fmf said
Because the way she uses an atheist like me as a proxy to express her disagreement with you is very interesting,

I don't see it that way.

If suzianne has something to say to me she will.

Are you suggesting she's scared? She's not. In fact, she's a bit intimidating because she is really smart. I think suzianne and I avoid confrontation because of etiquette and politeness. And I think she and I are different in that I like to argue, but she doesn't. It probably wouldn't be a good idea for us to engage in this public forum for the sake of the debate.

@secondson said
So that's your reply to this? "Satan uses force to influence, but God does not."

The "force" Satan uses are lies and deception to cause one to turn away from God to himself. It's a simple truth of the Bible.

God does not force anyone to believe in Him, but instead implores one to choose to receive from Him eternal life. God doesn't force anyone against their will, bu ...[text shortened]... ls me though how easily and quickly you lose and misinterpret the context of the posts you reply to.

When God appeared to Moses do you think Moses had any choice but to believe God existed?

@secondson said
I don't see it that way.

If suzianne has something to say to me she will.

Are you suggesting she's scared? She's not. In fact, she's a bit intimidating because she is really smart. I think suzianne and I avoid confrontation because of etiquette and politeness. And I think she and I are different in that I like to argue, but she doesn't. It probably wouldn't be a good idea for us to engage in this public forum for the sake of the debate.

Most of the Christians in this forum dance around each other like kids on a maypole desperately trying to avoid confronting one another and frequently trying to pitch a counter argument vicariously through someone else.

@divegeester said
When God appeared to Moses do you think Moses had any choice but to believe God existed?

Please read the actual history of the search for Moses by the Israelis .
Exodus and Moses et al are a mythological fable.

@divegeester said
When God appeared to Moses do you think Moses had any choice but to believe God existed?

Of course! Moses could have said to God "no thanks, not interested". God didn't force Moses into compliance. Moses did what God said because he wanted to, but not without a bit of a debate first.

What's wrong with you? Do you not understand what freewill means? Or are you just a casualty of your upbringing?