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07 Jan 22
@fmf saidWhy don’t you explain the terms for people who may not know?
I can't just decide to be one, obviously. But maybe one day I will realize that a deist is what I am. It'd be the result of a process, not a decision.
What would theists make of this if it happened? And what would atheists make of it?
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07 Jan 22
@fmf saidAll right, I’ll do it.
I am more interested in a discussion with people who already know what deism is and who have been considering it or aware of it for a period of years.
In simple terms, deists believe God is a kind of absentee landlord.
Theists believe God is a kind of live-in landlord.
Sound about right?
As for an improvement over atheism, I don’t think so, in the same way I don’t think people who believed in false gods in Biblical times were any better off than atheists.
@pb1022 saidAnother way you could look at it is that deists and Christian theists are perceiving the same creator entity ~ the one that created the same universe and created the same 'content and inhabitants' [humans, and flora and fauna] ~ but, while Christians believe this creator has revealed itself to humans [and let certain specific wishes be known], deists don't believe it has.
As for an improvement over atheism, I don’t think so, in the same way I don’t think people who believed in false gods in Biblical times were any better off than atheists.
Meanwhile, non-Christian theists, while also believing in the creator entity and the same universe etc., perceive different revelations and therefore have their own traditions and narratives.
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@fmf saidI honestly don’t think deists and Christian theists perceive the same creator entity because, for Christians, Jesus Christ *is* that creator entity, and obviously Jesus Christ revealed Himself to the world and let His wishes and what He values be known.
Another way you could look at it is that deists and Christian theists are perceiving the same creator entity ~ the one that created the same universe and created the same 'content and inhabitants' [humans, and flora and fauna] ~ but, while Christians believe this creator has revealed itself to humans [and let certain specific wishes be known], deists don't believe it has.
Mean ...[text shortened]... niverse etc., perceive different revelations and therefore have their own traditions and narratives.
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.”
(John 1:1-3)
“God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;”
(Hebrews 1:1-2)
@pb1022 saidPresumably you didn't know what deism is.
Why don’t you explain the terms for people who may not know?
This is from www.britannica.com:
"Deism refers to what can be called natural religion, the acceptance of a certain body of religious knowledge that is inborn in every person or that can be acquired by the use of reason and the rejection of religious knowledge when it is acquired through either revelation or the teaching of any church."
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@fmf saidYou disagree with this definition?
Presumably you didn't know what deism is.
This is from www.britannica.com:
"Deism refers to what can be called natural religion, the acceptance of a certain body of religious knowledge that is inborn in every person or that can be acquired by the use of reason and the rejection of religious knowledge when it is acquired through either revelation or the teaching of any church."
<<Main Difference – Deism vs Theism
Deism and theism are two religious beliefs about the existence of god and his intervention in the universe. While both deism and theism hold the belief that God is the creator of the universe and gave human beings the ability to think, they have different beliefs about God’s intervention in the universe. Deism holds the belief that God does not intervene in human affairs whereas theism holds the belief that God intervenes in human affairs through miracles or supernatural revelation. This is the main difference between deism and theism.>>
https://pediaa.com/difference-between-deism-and-theism/
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07 Jan 22
@pb1022 saidThat’s one of several websites that has the same general definition.
You disagree with this definition?
<<Main Difference – Deism vs Theism
Deism and theism are two religious beliefs about the existence of god and his intervention in the universe. While both deism and theism hold the belief that God is the creator of the universe and gave human beings the ability to think, they have different beliefs about God’s intervention in the univer ...[text shortened]... in difference between deism and theism.>>
https://pediaa.com/difference-between-deism-and-theism/
@pb1022 saidIf the universe has only one creator entity, and deists believe that there is only one creator entity, and Christians believe that there is only one creator entity, then both believe there is only one creator entity, Christian narratives do not alter this.
I honestly don’t think deists and Christian theists perceive the same creator entity because, for Christians, Jesus Christ *is* that creator entity, and obviously Jesus Christ revealed Himself to the world and let His wishes and what He values be known.
Sure, Islam and Judaism and Christianity and other "revealed" religions have traditions that attribute differing specific identities and characteristics and folklore to the entity, but they all believe ~ as I think deists do too ~ that the universe has only one creator entity.
@pb1022 saidSeems OK. As it says, both deism and theism hold the belief that God is the creator of the universe and gave human beings the ability to think.
You disagree with this definition?
https://pediaa.com/difference-between-deism-and-theism/
I have conceded many times that I think the universe and human consciousness are probably the two strongest kinds of evidence [that theists have] that a creator entity exists.
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@fmf saidThe difference is Christians believe that creator entity assumed human form and interacted with, taught and ultimately died for His creation.
If the universe has only one creator entity, and deists believe that there is only one creator entity, and Christians believe that there is only one creator entity, then both believe there is only one creator entity, Christian narratives do not alter this.
Sure, Islam and Judaism and Christianity and other "revealed" religions have traditions that attribute differing specifi ...[text shortened]... ty, but they all believe ~ as I think deists do too ~ that the universe has only one creator entity.
Ask a Jew if Jesus Christ was God, and he’ll say No (unless he’s a Messianic Jew.)
Ask a Muslim if Jesus was God, and he’ll say No.
Ask a Christian if Jesus was/is God, and (I think) most will say Yes.
Jesus Christ is the dividing line.
An atheist once said people who believe God exists all worship the same God but call Him different names. That’d be true if it weren’t for Jesus. Jesus was physically on earth in human form, not as a burning bush or a pillar of cloud.
@pb1022 saidSo re: the OP's first of two questions: Deists' belief in the universe being created by one creator entity, the same as monotheists believe the universe is created by one creator entity, this must surely be some 'improvement' on explicit atheism in the eyes of theists right?
The difference is Christians believe that creator entity assumed human form and interacted with, taught and ultimately died for His creation.
Ask a Jew if Jesus Christ was God, and he’ll say No (unless he’s a Messianic Jew.)
Ask a Muslim if Jesus was God, and he’ll say No.
Ask a Christian if Jesus was/is God, and (I think) most will say Yes.
Jesus Christ is the div ...[text shortened]... for Jesus. Jesus was physically on earth in human form, not as a burning bush or a pillar of cloud.