@vivify saidIf 20% of people like yellow, 30% like red and 50% like blue, the majority in this case are people who like blue. A majority of Ukrainians supported the EU deal.
If 20% of people like yellow, 30% like red and 50% like blue, the majority in this case are people who like blue. A majority of Ukrainians supported the EU deal.
But it's just anachronistic to project the attitudes of post-2014 Ukraine back into the moment when these deals were being discussed. The past, as they say, is a foreign country.
The point is to understand what factors lead to the current situation, not reinsert past values into the present.
Not so. 50% is half; as a simple matter of definition, a majority means "more than half". So one could say "With the Senate split 50-50, the Democrats do not command a majority in the chamber, but are able to pass legislation by virtue of the Vice President's casting vote." 50 out of 100 is not a majority. 51 out of 100 (or, in the Senate once the VP's casting vote is used, 51 out of 101) is a majority.
In the example you give, the majority are not people who like blue. Just as many people ( 50% ) don't like blue as like it. Rather, a plurality - the largest of the several non-majorities - like blue.
This is fine; elections are often won on a plurality (rather than a majority) vote - this is the case in the electoral systems for congress in the US and the House of Commons in the UK. However, we should avoid the term "majority" unless we qualify it with an adjective like "relative" (a "relative majority" is a synonym for "plurality" ).
A plurality of Ukrainians did apparently support the EU deal in autumn 2013, though only by a narrow margin.
The point is to understand what factors lead to the current situation, not reinsert past values into the present.
You said (speaking of the situation in 2013) that "entering a partnership with the EU seemed like a better alternative than partnering with a hostile dictatorship". In 2013, while Ukrainians may have been aware that Russia was increasingly dictatorial, they didn't perceive the country as hostile. They began to do so, obviously, after Russia annexed the Crimea in 2014.
@teinosuke saidIt’s kind of irrelevant if only 50% support EU membership I’m sure there will be an opportunity to pull out of the deal, these things are normally finalised by a referendum.
If 20% of people like yellow, 30% like red and 50% like blue, the majority in this case are people who like blue. A majority of Ukrainians supported the EU deal.
Not so. 50% is half; as a simple matter of definition, a majority means "more than half". So one could say "With the Senate split 50-50, the Democrats do not command a majority in the chamber, but are ab ...[text shortened]... ive the country as hostile. They began to do so, obviously, after Russia annexed the Crimea in 2014.
The point is that it’s for the Ukrainian people to decide, it’s not for Putin or anyone else ( other than the EU who can withdraw or freeze the offer ) to say yay or nay on the matter.
05 Oct 22
@kevcvs57 saidSure, but equally, it wasn't for the EU to veto Ukrainian association with the Russian-led Eurasian Customs Union. Plenty of people in Ukraine wanted to be associated with both, and that would probably have been to the country's advantage.
The point is that it’s for the Ukrainian people to decide, it’s not for Putin or anyone else ( other than the EU who can withdraw or freeze the offer ) to say yay or nay on the matter.
@teinosuke saidma·jor·i·ty
Not so. 50% is half; as a simple matter of definition, a majority means "more than half".
/məˈjôrədē, məˈjärədē/
noun
1. the greater number.
With the Senate split 50-50, the Democrats do not command a majority in the chamber
Because 50 is not greater than 50, therefore not a majority.
50 is greater than 48, making the majority from your example the Ukrainians who supporter the EU deal.
05 Oct 22
@teinosuke saidFine. There were more Ukrainians who supported the EU deal than were against it.
As I say, that is a plurality, not a majority. 51-48 would be a majority.
05 Oct 22
@teinosuke saidWell the EU certainly is entitled to not agree to a a back door into its market by the Russian federation, they are very persnickety about who gains access to their internal markets.
Sure, but equally, it wasn't for the EU to veto Ukrainian association with the Russian-led Eurasian Customs Union. Plenty of people in Ukraine wanted to be associated with both, and that would probably have been to the country's advantage.
I can see why Putin and the federation would think it’s a great idea and I can see why Ukrainians might prefer access to two markets at the same time.
But to be clear the EU did not veto Ukraine joining the Moscow based internal market it simply veto the idea of tying the two markets together with Ukraine being the conduit for the flow of tax free imports coming in from the federation.
They also did not invade Ukraine in order to force their option onto them.
05 Oct 22
@teinosuke saidBut there were still more who supported the EU deal than the Russian one.
Yes. There were also more Ukrainians who supported the Russian deal than were against it.
05 Oct 22
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@vivify saidYes, but really it was almost even; a week later it might have been the other way round. To point to such a tiny margin as suggesting a decisive public preference is questionable I think.
But there were still more who supported the EU deal than the Russian one.
My basic problem with your position is that winner-takes-all politics doesn't work very well in a country which has the kinds of ethnic and religious divisions that were apparent in Ukraine up to 2013. Such a society may function best if it's not forced into binary choices. Those opinion polls didn't offer a third option: a loose association with both blocs. If that option had been on the table, I wonder how many Ukrainians would have chosen it.
05 Oct 22
@teinosuke saidI agree, but I wasn't making a point for majority-rule. The initial point was that most Ukrainians wanted closer ties with the EU. That's all I was saying.
My basic problem with your position is that winner-takes-all politics doesn't work very well in a country which has the kinds of ethnic and religious divisions that were apparent in Ukraine up to 2013.
05 Oct 22
@kevcvs57 saidKosovo was part of Serbia. Don't you understand that?
No you right wing Slav nationalist I mean the majority Muslim population of Kosovo who want to be left in peace and not slaughtered like the Bosnian Muslims by Bosnian Serbs.
You really are an ultra Slavic fascist huh.
Kosovo was part of Serbia like Crimea was part of Ukraine. Kosovo and Crimea were both annexed. Kosovo by NATO and Crimea by Russia.
05 Oct 22
How bad must it be if Russia is resorting to recruiting convicts and giving them two weeks training before sending them to the front?
https://edition.cnn.com/2022/08/09/europe/russia-recruits-prisoners-ukraine-war-cmd-intl/index.html
Of course, they're just cannon fodder -- so the Russian artillery can get a fix on the Ukrainian positions.