Debates
19 Jul 21
22 Jul 21
1 edit
@kevcvs57 saidAgreed, in general.
Except it’s nothing like that analogy is it?
It’s just wrong headed to assume B & J are anti Semitic because they are opposed to the Israeli Governments settlement policies as are many Jewish people in Israel and further afield.
Nobody whose not pro settlement or a supporter of right wing Israeli politics falls for that anti Semitic charge anymore it’s been flogged to dea ...[text shortened]... s anti Semitic making a statement about the inequity of Israeli government policies is not, simples.
Boycotting, on the other hand, when you fail to boycott much worse abuses in other areas, does smell a little of anti-Semitism.
IS B&J anti-Semitic? Probably not. I've explained why I think they're doing this above.
But the idea that B&J can't be anti-Semitic because they sell to Jews in New York is nonsense (and exactly akin to the "I have black friends" alibi).
@sh76 saidWell it could be that they see most Israelis as reasonable people who have concerns about their governments approach to the disputed territories and therefore a token stand by an ice cream seller might bolster that sizeable segment of Israel’s political landscape.
Agreed, in general.
Boycotting, on the other hand, when you fail to boycott much worse abuses in other areas, does smell a little of anti-Semitism.
IS B&J anti-Semitic? Probably not. I've explained why I think they're doing this above.
But the idea that B&J can't be anti-Semitic because they sell to Jews in New York is nonsense (and exactly akin to the "I have black friends" alibi).
As for the other parts of the world they are probably being sanctioned to the hilt by the US government already. Perhaps they are making a statement about their own government’s unwavering non critical support of Israel. Are you saying anyone who refuses to operate in the disputed territories must first make sure they do the same in every other contentious region of the world.
Maybe they are making a statement about their own governments massive and crippling embargo on Cuba whilst it openly condones and supports the actions of the Israeli government. At the end of the day the Israeli state is not a Jew so unless your admitting that your own government is anti Muslim, Chinese and Hispanic the claim that B & J are anti Semitic sounds like a hollow case of cherry picking.
22 Jul 21
@kevcvs57 saidThe cherry picking of issues is astounding. One can expect an ice cream company to simply sell ice cream. Ben & Jerrys has no expertise in geopolitics and therefore it is unsurprising that its randomly application of policy seems to unfairly and target Israel. There are certainly those in the United States who question its treatment of Native Americans and their being forced to reservations. Of course Ben & Jerry's has no problem selling ice cream there. There are countless border disputes (some more famous like Russia-Ukraine like the line between North and South Korea and some less famous like Trigi Area east of the Upper Courtantyne River) but Ben and Jerrys doesn't weight in on them. Plus there are an infinite number of issues like restrictive abortion laws, child labor, minimum wage, gender inequalities, pollution which seem far more significant. Ben & Jerry's need to comment on one policy in one area certainly isn't a stand on an issue -- it is a very thinly veiled bigoted message.
Well it could be that they see most Israelis as reasonable people who have concerns about their governments approach to the disputed territories and therefore a token stand by an ice cream seller might bolster that sizeable segment of Israel’s political landscape.
As for the other parts of the world they are probably being sanctioned to the hilt by the US government already ...[text shortened]... nese and Hispanic the claim that B & J are anti Semitic sounds like a hollow case of cherry picking.
22 Jul 21
1 edit
@quackquack saidSo any criticism of Israel is unfair unless you’ve already criticised every other government in the world. Obviously the US sanctions on China, are thinly veiled bigoted anti Chinese actions, the sanctions on Cuba are thinly veiled bigoted anti hispanic actions and the sanctions in Iran are thinly veiled anti Islamic actions. You shouldn’t be surprised at B & Js thinly veiled bigotry given their country of origin. Not to mentioned the support given to Israel being thinly veiled anti Palestinian bigotry on the part of the US.
The cherry picking of issues is astounding. One can expect an ice cream company to simply sell ice cream. Ben & Jerrys has no expertise in geopolitics and therefore it is unsurprising that its randomly application of policy seems to unfairly and target Israel. There are certainly those in the United States who question its treatment of Native Americans and their bein ...[text shortened]... olicy in one area certainly isn't a stand on an issue -- it is a very thinly veiled bigoted message.
22 Jul 21
@kevcvs57 saidWhat if Ben and Jerrys looked at American society and said African Americans commit a disproportionate amount of crime (which they do) and drop out of school at a disproportionate rate (which they also do) and until African Americans reform their ways, it would no longer sell its product in areas where African Americans live. I doubt you find this policy productive, perhaps you would question its legality and you likely would question its motive.
So any criticism of Israel is unfair unless you’ve already criticised every other government in the world. Obviously the US sanctions on China, are thinly veiled bigoted anti Chinese actions, the sanctions on Cuba are thinly veiled bigoted anti hispanic actions and the sanctions in Iran are thinly veiled anti Islamic actions. You shouldn’t be surprised at B & Js thinly veile ...[text shortened]... oned the support given to Israel being thinly veiled anti Palestinian bigotry on the part of the US.
Ben and Jerrys primary function is to sell ice cream. Despite its left leaning tendency it doesn't stop selling ice cream in Texas when Texas passes a restrictive anti abortion law, it did not stop selling ice cream in Georgia when Georgia passed a restrictive law on voting. Ben and Jerry's doesn't stop selling ice cream to places that support the death penalty or places that don't support human rights or many of the other liberal causes that are preached over and over again. It however has chosen to take sides in one issue and not like Ben and Jerrys picked the issue of the century like it boycotted selling ice cream to the Nazis. When ice cream companies decide to lash out a single groups we have gone too far in imposing morality.
It picked one side of a relatively minor non-ice cream related issue.
22 Jul 21
@kevcvs57 saidWhen a person makes a political statement, it's just a political statement. When a multinational retailer takes economic action against one target, it is not a political statement - it is discrimination. I'm not saying discrimination is always inherently bad; but you can't judge it by the same standard as political statements.
Well it could be that they see most Israelis as reasonable people who have concerns about their governments approach to the disputed territories and therefore a token stand by an ice cream seller might bolster that sizeable segment of Israel’s political landscape.
As for the other parts of the world they are probably being sanctioned to the hilt by the US government already ...[text shortened]... nese and Hispanic the claim that B & J are anti Semitic sounds like a hollow case of cherry picking.
If I announce that I don't like Asian people, that's my First Amendment right. If I refuse to serve Asian Americans at my restaurant, I've violated the Civil Rights Act and can be sued. See the difference?
A company currently engaged in commerce cutting off pre-existing economic activity for announced political reasons is tantamount to a boycott. Whatever their Boards' political views are, participating in a boycott is a nasty business. I don't know their precise motivation, so I'll leave it at that.
22 Jul 21
@sh76 saidCutting down on ice cream will increase your life expectancy more than wearing one of those damned cloth masks in the supermarket, anyway.
I will say this: If this gets Jewish people to eat less ice cream in all, it will be worth it.
Cutting down on ice cream will increase your life expectancy more than wearing one of those damned cloth masks in the supermarket, anyway.
Don't deceive us SH! I know you secretly think of those masks as a form of kinky bondage! 😏
22 Jul 21
@mchill saidIf my wife would let, perhaps.
Cutting down on ice cream will increase your life expectancy more than wearing one of those damned cloth masks in the supermarket, anyway.
Don't deceive us SH! I know you secretly think of those masks as a form of kinky bondage! 😏
I suppose a rant about how useless cloth masks are would be a bit tangential to this thread?
22 Jul 21
@kevcvs57 saidWell stated, Kev
Well it could be that they see most Israelis as reasonable people who have concerns about their governments approach to the disputed territories and therefore a token stand by an ice cream seller might bolster that sizeable segment of Israel’s political landscape.
As for the other parts of the world they are probably being sanctioned to the hilt by the US government already ...[text shortened]... nese and Hispanic the claim that B & J are anti Semitic sounds like a hollow case of cherry picking.
23 Jul 21
@sh76 saidSurely you're not suggesting that a Federal law requiring a private company to sell its product in Country A could pass Constitutional muster?
Yes, there are federal anti-boycott laws.
Of course, they won't be enforced in this case.
23 Jul 21
@sh76 saidI am disappointed that you continue to equate disapproval of Israel's many violations of international law with anti-Semitism.
I appreciate the friendly admonition, but I'll continue to suspect every person who supports any facet of the "BDS" movement of anti-Semitism, thank you.
It takes a lot less than that to be suspected of racism 'round here.
23 Jul 21
@no1marauder saidI'm really not trying to.
I am disappointed that you continue to equate disapproval of Israel's many violations of international law with anti-Semitism.
I think I've made it pretty clear on this thread that I don't think (or at least I'm not sure) that B&J is motivated by anti-Semitism. I think it's more of a knee-jerk anti-white colonialism.
I do draw a line between disapproval and boycott.
If you say "Look at what Israel is doing" and I say "Look at China" or something like that, you'd correctly say that's whataboutism and irrelevant to the issue.
BUT, if you're going to employ the power of economic sanctions, you ought to do so evenhandedly.
23 Jul 21
@no1marauder saidWe may find out about state anti-boycott laws.
Surely you're not suggesting that a Federal law requiring a private company to sell its product in Country A could pass Constitutional muster?
https://www.flgov.com/2021/07/22/[WORD TOO LONG]/
23 Jul 21
@sh76 saidThat seems to merely prevent the State from doing business with the company IF it places it on the " Continued Examination Companies that Boycott Israel List":
We may find out about state anti-boycott laws.
https://www.flgov.com/2021/07/22/[WORD TOO LONG]/
"Should the State Board of Administration affirmatively place Unilever and its corporate entities on the Scrutinized Companies List and these companies do not cease the boycott of Israel as required by Florida law, the Board must refrain from acquiring any and all Unilever assets consistent with the law. "
I wasn't aware that there were Boards specifically created in the US to protect Israel's flagrant violations of international law. Live and learn.