Who died on the cross?

@sonship said
@medullah

medullah, when The First and the Last says He became dead, and behold He lives forever and ever (Rev. 1:18) you will just ignore this. You will just whistle, shut your eyes, and hope Revelation 1:18 goes away ?

The Son of God (and the Son of Man) is this One become flesh -

"Thus says Jehovah the King of Israel . . . I ...[text shortened]... no God." (Isaiah 44:6)

This One "became dead." So this One died on the cross.

Si I guess this passage:

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. (Revelation 1:1-2 KJV)

Can also read as

The Revelation of God , which Jesus Christ gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: Who bare record of the word of Jesus, and of the testimony of God, and of all things that he saw.:

And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
(Revelation 1:5-6 KJV)

See how all this makes sense. God is the Father, Jesus is the Son. They are not the same. They are not equal. Your doctrine is a mess of confusion, twisting, manipulation and mostly blatantly false.

@Rajk999

Not to worry about explaining, I think Jesus was pretty clear that God was His Father. Here is the passage:

Jehovah God says that besides Him there is no God.

"I am the First and I am the Last
And apart from Me there is no God." (Isaiah. 44:6b)

But John 1:1 says the One Who was God was also with God.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." (John 1:1)

So it is not as simple as you would have it that because the Son called God His Father He is not God. There is no God apart from Jehovah God.

But the mystery of God is deeper still because God asks "who was with Me?".

"I am Jehovah whose makes all things, Who alone stretches out the heavens,
Who spread out the earth (Who was with Me?)" (Isaiah 44:24b)

The Word who was with God was God and became flesh (John 1:1,14)
Yet, WHO was with God when He created the universe stretching forth the heavens and spreading out the earth?

This mysterious One we have to let come into our hearts since He became dead and behold He is living forever and ever.

This Son Who in resurrection says He is "the First and the Last" (Rev. 1:18) also prays that He had the glory of God before the creation of the world and that the Father loved Him before the foundation of the world.

"Father, concerning that which You have given Me, I desire that they also be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory, which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world." (John 17:24)

"And now, glorify Me along with Yourself, Father, with the glory which I had with You before the world was." (17:5)

I therefore believe that God incarnate died on the cross, for you . .. died for me . . . died for Suzianne . . . died for Ghost of a Duke . . . died for all of us.

@sonship said

I therefore believe that God incarnate died on the cross, for you

[b]"

Thats a kind of weak doctrine and not what the bible says because you cannot quote the bible like I do, you have to stick your words into it

Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another. No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. (1 John 4:7-12 KJV)

No explanation. Its simple

@Rajk999

Yes, often it is very simple. For example the disciple Thomas said of Jesus - "My Lord and my God." (John 20:28)

I confess simply also Jesus Christ is my Lord and my God.

Rajk999 argues for simplicity.

In simplicity I confess "my Lord and my God" Jesus Christ died on the cross.

In simplicity Rajk999:

Is Jesus Christ your Lord?
Yes or No?
Is Jesus Christ your God?
Yes or No?

@sonship said
@Rajk999

Yes, often it is very simple. For example the disciple Thomas said of Jesus - "My Lord and my God." (John 20:28)

I confess simply also Jesus Christ is my Lord and my God.

I can see that you are a worshipper of men. You rather listen to Thomas, Paul, Witness Lee. The strange thing is that everything Jesus Christ said you ignore and even condemn His teachings. So your confession that Jesus Christ is my Lord and my God., is hypocritical.

@eladar said
John 8

58 “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

Correct, he was the firstborn of creation, he was created by the father and had a pre-human existence

Col 1:15

14in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. 15The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

@Rajk999

Is Jesus Christ your Lord?
Yes or No?
Is Jesus Christ your God?
Yes or No?

It is noted. You avoided ANSWERING the question directly.

That's your business. The One who died on the cross is Jesus "my Lord and my God". And I thank God for the household of the faith and those of my brethren who share in it.

@sonship said
@Rajk999

Is Jesus Christ your Lord?
Yes or No?
Is Jesus Christ your God?
Yes or No?

It is noted. You avoided ANSWERING the question directly.

That's your business. The One who died on the cross is Jesus "my Lord and my God". And I thank God for the household of the faith and those of my brethren who share in it.

I have already stated my doctrine and you have stated yours. Your attempt to browbeat me into accepting your nonsense is proof that it is not biblical. Please mosey on down the road you idiot.

@medullah

You seemed to want to have the climax of the Bible with Ecclesiastes.
You seemed to look to Ecclesiastes for the final word on what God said.

Under what circumstances do you change your mind that Ecclesiastes should be the consummation of God's revelation and choose Colossians to be more important?

What triggers this change in attitude?
Is it dependent upon what narrative you wish to advocate?

Ie. For what happens after death - go to Ecclesiastes.
For Jesus being only a creature of God - go to Colossians.

What governs which stage in the revelation you put forward as the final word?

@Rajk999

Your cowardice in answering directly is not me brow beating you.

Perhaps, for you Jesus is not God.
Perhaps, for you Jesus Christ is not even Lord.

@sonship said
@Rajk999
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." (John 1:1)

No, this is tosh. In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God (Greek - Ho Theos = Almighty) and the word was a god (Greek logos = god like or divine)

The translation is not sound. It should read along the lines of

"In the beginning was The Word, and The Word was with God and the word was (several different translations) renders

a) divine
b) god like
c) a god (lower case as this is the logos, not Ho Theos).

Logos does not equal Ho Theos. Logos is inferior to Ho Theos.

Hence "The father (Ho Theos) " is greater than I (logos)"

@sonship said
@medullah

You seemed to want to have the climax of the Bible with Ecclesiastes.
You seemed to look to Ecclesiastes for the final word on what God said.

Under what circumstances do you change your mind that Ecclesiastes should be the consummation of God's revelation and choose Colossians to be more important?

This is easy. You hold Saul's visit to the medium of Endor as proof of some kind of life after death, claiming that Samuel was alive.

Ecclesiates 9:5 "For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing. They have no further reward, because the memory of them is forgotten"

This isn't a climax (your words that you seek to plant in my mouth) it reflects the state of the dead.

How was Saul's actions viewed?

1 Chron 10:13 "Saul died because he was unfaithful to the Lord; he did not keep the word of the Lord and even consulted a medium for guidance" (NIV)

Saul wasn't some kind of hero. He was disgraced.

Deut 18:10-12

10 Let no one be found among you who sacrifices their son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, 11 or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. 12 Anyone who does these things is detestable to the Lord; because of these same detestable practices the Lord your God will drive out those nations before you.

So Medellah if your final word on death is with Ecclesiastes that there is no knowledge in Hades - When Christ died and had no knowledge in Hades, HOW then did He know to come back with the keys of that place?

"I am the living One; and I became dead, and behold, I am living forever and ever; and I have the keys of death and of Hades." (Rev. 1:18)

Peter said Jesus announced something to the spirits in that realm in the heart of the earth for part of the three days in which He was there after DYING.

" . . . being put to death in the flesh, but on the other [hand] , made alive in the Spirit in which also He went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison." (1 Peter. 3:18b-19)

I believe in spite of what Solomon knew and wrote in Ecclesiastes Jesus had the knowledge in DEATH to know what He had to do while in that state.

Do you believe the Son of God did those things while dead?
Or do you think Ecclesiastes must transcend and dictate that the man Jesus had no knowledge, work, thought, or wisdom or anything for Him to do in the that realm of Sheol ?

"Whatever your hand finds to do, do with all your might; for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, where you are going." (Ecc. 5:9)

@medullah said
No, this is tosh. In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God (Greek - Ho Theos = Almighty) and the word was a god (Greek logos = god like or divine)

The translation is not sound. It should read along the lines of

"In the beginning was The Word, and The Word was with God and the word was (several different translations) renders

a) divine
b) god like ...[text shortened]... Theos. Logos is inferior to Ho Theos.

Hence "The father (Ho Theos) " is greater than I (logos)"

This makes more sense and is in agreement with other statements about Christ