Who died on the cross?

@medullah said
Nowhere in the bible does Jesus claim to be God, but acknowledges The Father as his God (you may recall his utterance while he was hanging on the stake/cross)

Indeed. And here in one short passage John destroys all these false doctrines promoted by sonship and several others here:

Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another. No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit. And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. (1 John 4:7-15 KJV)

Summary:
- Anyone who shows charity / brotherly love to others is born of God
- God sent HIS SON to die on the cross for the sins of the world
- Love for God is demonstrated by love for fellow man
- The Father sent HIS SON to be the Saviour of the world
- God dwells in those who believe that Jesus is the Son of God

Sonship's doctrine runs completely opposite:
- To be born of God one has to profess faith and nothing else
- God sent Himself to die on the cross
- Love for God is demonstrated by calling 'Jesus, Jesus' and saying 'I love Jesus', 20 times and wearing 'I love Jesus' t-shirts.
- Jesus is God, rather than the Son of God.
-

@medullah

Nowhere in the bible does Jesus claim to be God, but acknowledges The Father as his God (you may recall his utterance while he was hanging on the stake/cross)

Are going to argue it was an arch-angel who died on the cross, like Michael?
Other things you say seem to skate close to JW teaching.

We it is true Jesus called His Father as God. We can hardly miss this fact.

But what else does the Bible say? We learn not only what was written. We have to examine "Again, it is written" as well.

In resurrection Jesus the Son of Man completely identifies Himself as "the First" and "the Last" which was Jehovah God in the Old Testament. And this "First and the Last" became DEAD and behold He lives forever and ever.

"Do not fear; I am the First and the Last and the living One; and I became DEAD . . . and behold, I am living forever and ever; and I have the keys of death and of Hades." (Rev. 1:17,18)

Who in all the universe and throughout all eternity is the First and the Last?
Let's check Isaiah.

"Thus says Jehovah the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, Jehovah of hosts,
I am the First and I am the Last,
And apart from Me there is no God." (Isaiah 44:6)

The One who died on the cross and "became dead" and came forth in resurrection is Jehovah God in a man.

He who spoke of His Father was God as a man. He is the one who bled and died for you - FOR YOU. And for me.

@bigdoggproblem said
I can't speak for him, but to me it's not so much a question as a clumsy rhetorical device, allowing you to lob yet more large blocks of text at no one in particular.

Indeed.

@sonship said
This is a question to those who believe someone died on the cross on Calvary hill at Golgotha. Who was the person who died on the cross?

What catches my attention is what the Bible says about it.

The Romans executed many, many people by crucifixion.

It was entirely common at the time.

But only one Son of God, Jesus of Nazareth.

@Suzianne

The Romans executed many, many people by crucifixion.

It was entirely common at the time.

But only one Son of God, Jesus of Nazareth.

That is what I believe - the Son of God died.

And His attitude towards having to take the cup and drink it is unique. It is more than just death that He dreaded. Something else caused Him to ask His Father that if it were possible the cup should pass from Him. Yet as the Father willed and not He.

He turned Himself over boldly asking then "Whom do you seek?". They fell back when I answer that He was Jesus of Nazareth. "I am He". He was so bold to face death. Then it was something more than death that was a trial to His whole being.

It was to be under divine judgment. It was to be made sin on our behalf. It was to become a curse. It was to bear up our sins in His body. It was to be under the judgment of God as Satan.

Many were crucified. Only One had a crucifixion which secured eternal significance. He had to be a man in order to be able to die. And He had to be God in order to make the impact and significance of that death have eternal efficacy and everlasting meaning.

Thankyou for your contribution.

@sonship said
This is a question to those who believe someone died on the cross on Calvary hill at Golgotha. Who was the person who died on the cross?

What catches my attention is what the Bible says about it.

Muslims believe that Jesus did not die on the cross, it was someone else.

@moonbus said
Muslims believe that Jesus did not die on the cross, it was someone else.

What do you moonbus believe?

@sonship said
@medullah

Nowhere in the bible does Jesus claim to be God, but acknowledges The Father as his God (you may recall his utterance while he was hanging on the stake/cross)

Are going to argue it was an arch-angel who died on the cross, like Michael?
Other things you say seem to skate close to JW teaching.

We it is true Jesus called His F ...[text shortened]... oke of His Father was God as a man. He is the one who bled and died for you - FOR YOU. And for me.

No, not going to argue anything, I already HAVE argued that Jesus the SON of God did die, and that he viewed his father as His God.

I'm not trying to twist the scriptures as you sometimes do.

There is no way that if you picked up the bible without prior coaching that you would come up with this trinity stuff; it is a hand-me-down from the Babylonian stuff that the Catholics embraced and that many churches have echoed, because so many branches have sprung from that tree.

Nowhere in the bible does it say that Jehovah/YHWH took the form of a man.

@medullah said
No, not going to argue anything, I already HAVE argued that Jesus the SON of God did die, and that he viewed his father as His God.

I'm not trying to twist the scriptures as you sometimes do.

There is no way that if you picked up the bible without prior coaching that you would come up with this trinity stuff; it is a hand-me-down from the Babylonian stuff that the Cath ...[text shortened]... sprung from that tree.

Nowhere in the bible does it say that Jehovah/YHWH took the form of a man.

John 8

58 “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

@medullah said

There is no way that if you picked up the bible without prior coaching that you would come up with this trinity stuff;

This is a point that I have raised with several people and they dont seem to understand it If one were to go back in time ask different people if they understood that there was a Trinity where Jesus was equal to God, or one and the same as God, then the answer would be no. They would also be at a loss to understand the relevance of that doctrine.

Say we asked
- a man who listened to the Sermon on the Mount
- someone who was in the feeding of the five thousand
- a Christian from the ecclesia of Colosse

They would want to know what foolish doctrine you are preaching.
-

@eladar said
John 8

58 “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

Jesus was always there with God, as His Son. It does not say that Jesus and God are one and the same.

@rajk999 said
Jesus was always there with God, as His Son. It does not say that Jesus and God are one and the same.

No, it does not. But the only being known as I am, is God the Father. This is where some say Jesus is claiming to be God.

You are free to disagree. I am not trying to convince you that you are wrong. I am just pointing out scripture.

I was hoping to not be required to explain things this much.

@eladar said
No, it does not. But the only being known as I am, is God the Father. This is where some say Jesus is claiming to be God.

You are free to disagree. I am not trying to convince you that you are wrong. I am just pointing out scripture.

I was hoping to not be required to explain things this much.

Not to worry about explaining, I think Jesus was pretty clear that God was His Father. Here is the passage:

[i]Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God: ..... Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. (John 8:54-58 KJV)

Plus if you were to look at the original Greek words in this passage where Jesus says "I am". they are completely different Greek words in Genesis when God told Moses he was 'I AM'. They do not have the same meaning.

@rajk999 said
Not to worry about explaining, I think Jesus was pretty clear that God was His Father. Here is the passage:

[i]Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God: ..... Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. (John 8:54-58 KJV)

Plus if you wer ...[text shortened]... fferent Greek words in Genesis when God told Moses he was 'I AM'. They do not have the same meaning.

ok

@medullah

medullah, when The First and the Last says He became dead, and behold He lives forever and ever (Rev. 1:18) you will just ignore this. You will just whistle, shut your eyes, and hope Revelation 1:18 goes away ?

The Son of God (and the Son of Man) is this One become flesh -

"Thus says Jehovah the King of Israel . . . I am the First and I am the Last,

And apart from Me there is no God." (Isaiah 44:6)

This One "became dead." So this One died on the cross.