Who died on the cross?

@sonship said
Medullah, in case Rajk999 cannot answer, you give it a try.

Jesus affirmed Thomas's confession that He [Jesus] WAS his Lord and God.
He could have sorely corrected Thomas on the God part. Right?

Why do you think He said "Because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and have BELIEVED." (John 20:29) [my bolding]

...[text shortened]... .

" . . . our God and Savior Jesus Christ" writes the Apostle Peter (2 Pet. 1:1)

So here is what is happening
- You make an issue of petty things
- You sideline critical matters
- You continue to encourage people to believe in your petty doctrines
- You discourage people from following Jesus's critical doctrines

Critical matters are the ones Jesus and the Apostles said clearly were NECESSARY for eternal life in the Kingdom of God, and/or criteria by which one is judged.

Petty matters are the ones not clearly stated or explained. Jesus said what was important, and ignored what was petty. If you want eternal life you should focus on what Jesus said rather than what he did not say.

A critical matter: Jesus is my Lord and my God. (John 20:28)

Now God alone has immortality. So how can I say God in a man died on the cross?
Because God prepared for the Son of God a body in which He could die.

"Therefore, coming into the world, He says, Sacrifices and offering You did not desire, but a body You have prepared for Me." (Heb. 10:5)

This is the Son of God saying "A BODY YOU HAVE PREPARED FOR ME"

Now the Son is God. Heb. 1:8 - "But of the Son, Your throne, O God, is forever and ever."

And God the Father prepared a human body, a physical flesh and blood body for the Son of God: "And the Word was God, . . . and the Word became flesh" (John 1:1,14)

For Him who alone has immortality a body was prepared and in it He gave up His life for us. Let's look on in Heb. 10 slowly and carefully: Come on, it can't hurt!

"Therefore, coming into the world, He says, "Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, but a body You have prepared for Me. (v.5)

In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin you did not delight. (v.6)

Then I said, Behold, I have come (in the roll of the book it is written concerning Me) to do Your will of God." (v.7)

. . . By which will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once and for all." (v.10)

In the OFFERING of the BODY OF JESUS CHRIST once and for all God in man died on the cross for us.

@sonship said
A critical matter: Jesus is my Lord and my God. (John 20:28)

For you and Thomas.

Thomas was invited to examine the wounds of the nails and spear in the body of Jesus Christ. The body that God prepared for Him that God in a man could die.

The old testament offerings of bulls and goats stopped. And He came to do the will of God - the new will and testament.

"Then I said, Behold, I have come (in the roll of the book it is written concerning Me) to do Your will of God."

Saying above, "Sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin You did not desire nor delight in" (which are offered according to the law),

He then has said, "Behold, I [the Son] have come to do Your will." He takes away the first that He may establish the second,

By which will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once and for all." (Heb. 10:7-10)

This is a critical part of the Triune God's journey out from Himself INTO man.
A crucial step was God coming in a man to die and be raised from the dead.
Then He tells Thomas to examine that resurrected body which had been prepared for Him.

"Then He said to Thomas, Bring your finger here and see My hands, and bring your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing.

Thomas answered and said to Him, My Lord and my God!" (John 20:27,28)

@sonship said
Medullah, in case Rajk999 cannot answer, you give it a try.

Jesus affirmed Thomas's confession that He [Jesus] WAS his Lord and God.
He could have sorely corrected Thomas on the God part. Right?

1:1)[/b]

Actually it's one of the few fair poins that you have raised, and I wondered about that a lot at one time. So I had to decide as there appeared to be a contradiction

My rationale was that there were by far, more scriptures making it clear that Jeuss was not God Almighty. You can (and is done repeatedly in the bible) refer to another human being as a god, which means "mighty one".

Equally possible, was that Thomas was so shocked (not unreasonable) that were a lot of people will say "Jesus Christ!" or even "Ker - er - riste" Thomas said what he did, a psudo profanity. Who knows?

@medullah

Actually it's one of the few fair poins that you have raised,

It is more than one of the "few" points which have been made.
I don't see you very well rebutting more than a "few" points from Isaiah and Revelation and Hebrews and [/b]John[/b] which have been made.

John 20:28 is consistent with the apostle's entire emphasis in his gospel.
God became a man. He who was with God profoundly was God. And this One
became flesh.

And He became a man not only to die an eternally redemption for sinners.
He also became a man to reproduce what He is as God-man into many like Him.

It is the eternal purpose of God to produce many sons as brothers conformed to the image of the Firstborn Son from the dead. Let's check Paul first and re-check with Christ's mighty prayer in John 17.

"Because those whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many brothers." (Rom. 8:29)

The unique God became man to redeem men and impart His life into them that they may be conformed to the Firstborn Son of God as "many brothers".

Jesus petitioned the Father that this eternal purpose of God must be fulfilled.

"That they all may be one; even as You , Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us; that the world may believe that You have sent Me.

And the glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, even as We are one;

I in them, and You in Me, that they may be perfected into one, that the world may know that You have sent Me and have loved them even as You have loved Me." (John 17:21-23)

You see, this being "PERFECTED" into one is the process carried out by the Triune God. It is still ongoing. And His incarnation, death, resurrection, and imparting into man are part of this process of the perfecting.

Here He shows that He came to DIE not only as the Lamb of God for shedding redeeming blood but to be reproduced into many like Him.

"Truly, truly, I say to you, Unless the grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies it abides alone; but if it dies it bears much fruit." (John 12:24)

The humanity of the Lord Jesus had to be broken in His death in order to release the divine element concealed within that shell. And then He dispenses Himself into many grains as "much fruit" to produce "many brothers".

Both your objections - that the Word was ANOTHER god or godlike being then the God with whom the Word was, is wrong.

And your point that the God with being the Lord to Thomas is some other god or that Thomas was too confused, is wrong. Thomas was NEVER MORE CLEAR. And this is why Jesus confirmed that he had rightly believed. He had not wrongly believed. He had rightly believed.

@medullah

My rationale was that there were by far, more scriptures making it clear that [Jesus] was not God Almighty. You can (and is done repeatedly in the bible) refer to another human being as a god, which means "mighty one".

Revelation 1:7,8 says that the One coming on the clouds of heaven is "the Almighty".

"Behold, He comes with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him, and all the tribes of the land will mourn over Him. Yes, amen.

I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, He who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty." (Rev. 1:7,8 Recovery Version)

I have carefully considered this claim and stand behind it. The One speaking that He is the Alpha and the Omega - the ALMIGHTY is the one coming on the clouds speaking to John the seer.

And that this is God whom the tribes of the holy land pierced and will mourn over in His coming is exactly what Zechariah 12:10 prophesies.

"And I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and of supplication;

And they will look upon ME, whom they have pierced; and they will wail over Him with wailing as for an only son and cry bitterly over Him with bitter crying as for a firstborn son.

In that day there will be great wailing in Jerusalem, like the wailing of Hadad rimmon in the valley of Megiddon. And the land will wail, every family by itself; the family of the house of David . . . " (Zech. 12:10-12a)

When Jesus Christ descends on a cloud over the Holy Land all the tribes of the land in Israel will wail over Him. And they will realize it is He who was nailed to on the cross - PIERCED by their former rejection and crucifixion of Him at the hands of the Romans.

They cried out "Crucify, Crucify Him". But He was God Almighty as a man.

@sonship said
@medullah

Actually it's one of the few fair poins that you have raised,

No, because a lot of your posts have been inaccurate, and in my opinion you have twisted the facts, rather than observe the facts to reach a conclusion. We aren't going to agree on this one Son.

@medullah

No specifics makes the easiest position for you to defend.

. . . it clear that [Jesus] was not God Almighty.

Yes, He is the Almighty.
I know that the Speaker coming on the clouds is Jesus and He says that He is the Almighty (Rev. 1:8).

We can rest assured that this is Jesus coming on the clouds in fulfillment of Zechariah 12:10 - Jehovah who was pierced. He comes on the clouds and the tribes of the land wail and mourn over Him.

I know this is Jehovah the Almighty as a man because His FEET will stand upon the Mount of Olives when He comes down -

"Then Jehovah will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights in a day of battle.
And His feet will stand in that day on the Mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east . . . " (Zech. 14:3,4a)

But there is more proof that Jesus is God Almighty as a man.

The One who says He is the Alpha and the Omega is ALSO the One who says He is the First and the Last.

"Behold I come quickly, and My reward is with Me to render to each one as his work is,
I am the Alpha and the Omega,
the First and the Last,
the Beginning and the End." (Rev. 22:12,13)

He who is "the First and the Last" is Jesus the Son of Man in Revelation 1:18. As you can clearly see here He adds to the First and the Last that He is also "the Alpha and the Omega".

Without doubt the Alpha and the Omega is the First and the Last and that is Jesus. He who is these is also "the Almighty" coming on the clouds of heaven over the Holy Land.

" . . . I am the First and the Last and the living One; and I became dead; and behold I am living forever and ever; . . ." (Rev. 1:18)

"I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, He who is and who was and who is coming, THE ALMIGHTY." (Rev. 1:8)

"Behold I come quickly . . . I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End." (Rev. 22:12a,13)

The One who died on the cross was the Almighty as the Son of Man, Jesus Christ who became dead. He is living forever and ever.

@sonship said
What do you moonbus believe?

It is plausible that he died on the cross.