17 Sep 06
Originally posted by NemesioGood question.
There is no dispute that the Disciples performed these signs. So, that these last verses
confirm the same is immaterial. However, verses 19 and 20 do not exclude the possibility
that non-Disciples performed it.
Indeed, the preceding verses strongly suggest it: those who believe (that is tois pisteusasin)
is distinct from the Disc ...[text shortened]... /i]
is a far broader category than merely the Twelve or even the many more Apostles?
Nemesio
Please allow me some time to answer.
Take care
17 Sep 06
3 edits
Originally posted by jaywillI'm in agreement too, the gifts have a purpose, but they are not the
The Apostle Paul was very balanced about the use of miraculous gifts. He understood that God wanted Christ to be worked into His people that they lived by Him. Gift can be a kind of borrowed item. But life is what a person is really constituted with.
Paul instructed Timothy to take the natural way of healing on one occasion. On another he left a co-wor ing of character through transformation is more lasting than the excercise of miraculous gifts.
goal of God with the church just to have these gifts on display. It is a
greater thing to have a man or woman of God walking in the new life
God gives in the relationship we get with him, where those same
people were once people that belonged to the world, the flesh, and
the devil in sin, God can move through a person as God can move
through anything, God showed us He can do that at will even with a
donkey if God chooses.
Numbers 22
28And the LORD opened the mouth of the ass, and she said unto Balaam, What have I done unto thee, that thou hast smitten me these three times?
29And Balaam said unto the ass, Because thou hast mocked me: I would there were a sword in mine hand, for now would I kill thee.
30And the ass said unto Balaam, Am not I thine ass, upon which thou hast ridden ever since I was thine unto this day? was I ever wont to do so unto thee? and he said, Nay.
31Then the LORD opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and he bowed down his head, and fell flat on his face.
Again it isn’t that the discussion is on what is more important to God,
the gifts are for the edification of the Body of Christ, they are real and
they are for today, and they take place today.
Kelly
18 Sep 06
2 edits
Originally posted by KellyJayHi Kelly,
I only have 4 games left on this site and I'm going to take a break
from here for awhile. My life is quite busy so our ability to debate will
be limited to just the time it takes me to complete my last 4 games,
and one of them I resign on my next move.
I've ask you on more than one occasion, what scriptures are you
referring to when you make the clai ...[text shortened]... ease, if you are going to
make the claims you are making get into the details of this.
Kelly
Just a quick answer.
The scriptures I'm referring to are always the same:
Regarding the fact that the gifts would cease:
I Corinthians 13 - supernatural spiritual gifts would cease when that which is perfect/complete would come (i.e. all the writings God inspired and considered necessary for His Word to be complete/perfect).
Regarding the fact that only apostles could bestow them:
Acts 6:3-8[/i] - seven disciples were imparted spiritual gifts by the laying of hands of the apostles (Stephen and Philip the evangelist are included in this group).
Acts 8:5-24[/i] - Peter and John had to go to Samaria, since Philip (the evangelist) could not impart these gifts. God could have imparted them directly as He did in two ocasions, but as I said, those were exceptions; the rule was "by the laying of the apostles' hands".
Acts 19:4-7 - Paul laid his hands upon twelve disciples and they received the gift of tongues and prophecy.
II Timothy 1:6 - Paul reminds Timothy about the gift he had received by the laying of his hands.
And here is another one:
Romans 1:11 - In his epistle to the Romans, Paul tells them he needs to meet them in order to impart them spiritual gifts. God could impart them directly; why did Paul have to go to Rome to impart them? Because of this rule which can be infered from the above passages.
Romans 1:11 I long to see you so that I may impart to you some spiritual gift to make you strong — 12 that is, that you and I may be mutually encouraged by each other's faith. 13 I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that I planned many times to come to you (but have been prevented from doing so until now) in order that I might have a harvest among you, just as I have had among the other Gentiles.
When do I consider the Bible was complete?
When all the gospels, letters, and the book of Revelation were complete and in circulation, the canon was complete.
Just because these writings at that time (I century) had not yet been put together and considered as "The New Testament" of the Bible, it doesn't mean God didn't consider them as part of it.
Note: I hadn't addressed this before, since I think this is a whole different discussion altogether, although it is naturally related with the cessation of supernatural gifts.
Regards
xpoferens
18 Sep 06
Originally posted by ngeisler88I had a roommate named Stan Point in college, and he thought that salvation was the freedom from the habit of Sunday church meetings that made more time for fly fishing. I've never found any reason to disagree with him on this point (although we argued about almost everything else).
According to the Christian stanpoint,
18 Sep 06
1 edit
Originally posted by NemesioHi Nemesio,
There is no dispute that the Disciples performed these signs. So, that these last verses
confirm the same is immaterial. However, verses 19 and 20 do not exclude the possibility
that non-Disciples performed it.
Indeed, the preceding verses strongly suggest it: those who believe (that is tois pisteusasin)
is distinct from the Disc ...[text shortened]... /i]
is a far broader category than merely the Twelve or even the many more Apostles?
Nemesio
You know my point of view regarding this issue.
I believe the rule was that these gifts were only imparted unto disciples by the laying of hand of the apostles (two exceptions to this rule).
Therefore, I think these believers that are mentioned in Mark 16:17 were disciples.
I think Mark and other writers of the New Testament, when they talk about belief, they are talking about an active belief. A belief that leads people to obey the gospel and become disciples.
Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned.
Being this the previous verse of Mark 16:17, Mark is talking about true believers; the ones that truly believe will have all reasons to be baptized, in opposition to the ones that don't believe.
Please notice the following passages:
Mark 1
14 Now after John was delivered up, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God,
15 and saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe in the gospel.
II Thessalonians 1:8 rendering vengeance to them that know not God, and to them that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus:
A true belief requires obedience for one to enter (and maintain) discipleship.
This is John Gill's comentary on Mark 16:17
And these signs shall follow them that believe…
"Not all of them, but some; and not always, only for a time; and which were necessary for the confirmation of the Gospel, and the establishment of Christianity in the world; and not only believing hearers, but believing ministers of the word, are chiefly designed; and this is said, for the encouragement both of those that preach the Gospel, and of them that hear, believe and obey."
This is Strong's comentary on the word "believe"; it seems this is the word used both in Mark 16, verses 16 and 17.
"
4100 // pisteuw // pisteuo // pist-yoo'-o //
from 4102 ; TDNT - 6:174,849; v
AV - believe 239, commit unto 4, commit to (one's) trust 1,
be committed unto 1, be put in trust with 1,
be commit to one's trust 1, believer 1; 248
1) to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place
confidence in
1a) of the thing believed
1a1) to credit, have confidence
1b) in a moral or religious reference
1b1) used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man
is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and
law of soul
1b2) to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in
obtaining or in doing something: saving faith
1bc) mere acknowledgment of some fact or event: intellectual
faith
2) to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity
2a) to be intrusted with a thing
"
Strong is talking about a committed, active and faithful belief; a true disciples' belief.
Regards
19 Sep 06
Originally posted by 7ate9You don't have a clue what salvation is if you think one country or
salvation is something America has taken from Iraq, in it's false need to play god while considering itself God's favourite nation. this is untrue, because America is at the bottom of God's list and Iraq is God's favourite nation.
America cannot bring salvation to Iraq because it is low-life scum who cannot even appologise for using excess force on God's ow ...[text shortened]... il because of what it's own evil did... placing God's favourite children on death row.
man can take it from another.
Kelly
19 Sep 06
Originally posted by WulebgrYou following this thread, the salvation we were talking about was what
This is absurd. You don't think that the Iraqis needed salvation from Saddam, or from their liberators, or both??
Jesus Christ gives. What you are talking about is something
completely different than the topic of this thread up to this point.
Kelly
19 Sep 06
Originally posted by KellyJayNope. Sorry. I thought I was in the Debates thread and got here by accident. In the context of this thread, your comments seem a bit more sensible.
You following this thread, the salvation we were talking about was what
Jesus Christ gives. What you are talking about is something
completely different than the topic of this thread up to this point.
Kelly
20 Sep 06
Originally posted by xpoferens
I believe the rule was that these gifts were [b]only imparted unto disciples by the laying of hand of the apostles (two exceptions to this rule).
Therefore, I think these believers that are mentioned in Mark 16:17 were disciples. [/b]
You can believe it, but you are perverting language severely. This instruction was given to
the Disciples while 'at table.' Jesus was charging them with the responsibility of going out
into the world and proclaiming the good news to the whole creation. The instruction
doesn't say 'the (eleven) Disciples, who believe, will show signs.' It says that 'the one having
believed will show signs,' and from any semantic standpoint, those believers are ones who
have come to believe as a direct result of the Disciples' proclamations.
A true belief requires obedience for one to enter (and maintain) discipleship.
Okay. So, you, for example, should be classified as a disciple. So should KellyJay, because
you have unwavering belief.
Consequently, you should admit that, among your fellow disciples, healings, speaking in tongues,
picking up snakes, and so forth, are things that you should rightly experience (that is, not everyone
should be able to do all these things, but that some amongst modern-day disciples should have
these abilities).
This is John Gill's comentary on Mark 16:17
"Not all of them, but some; and not always, only for a time; and which were necessary for the confirmation of the Gospel, and the establishment of Christianity in the world; and not only believing hearers, but believing ministers of the word, are chiefly designed; and this is said, for the encouragement both of those that preach the Gospel, and of them that hear, believe and obey."
Good for John. What basis does he have for this? You obviously are simply taking his word for
it, but as KellyJay has said: where does it say that these gifts were temporary? No where. Where
does it suggest that these gifts are to be present amongst those who truly believe? Quite a few
places.
Strong is talking about a committed, active and faithful belief; a true disciples' belief.
Sure! I think Jesus meant this, too. Are you suggesting there are no true disciples around anymore?
Nemesio
20 Sep 06
2 edits
Originally posted by NemesioNemesio,
Originally posted by xpoferens
[b]I believe the rule was that these gifts were [b]only imparted unto disciples by the laying of hand of the apostles (two exceptions to this rule).
Therefore, I think these believers that are mentioned in Mark 16:17 were disciples. [/b]
You can believe it, but you are perverting language severely. This instr his, too. Are you suggesting there are no true disciples around anymore?
Nemesio[/b]
Another misunderstanding that you are reading from my words.
One thing are "The apostles", another are the disciples. All apostles were disciples, but not all disciples were apostles (just the eleven, at that occasion).
One thing I said was: I believe the rule was that these gifts were only imparted unto disciples by the laying of hand of the apostles (two exceptions to this rule).
From the above sentence and from my previous posts, it should be clear I differentiate Apostles from disciples.
Please allow me to say: "you are perverting my language severely."
Okay. So, you, for example, should be classified as a disciple. So should KellyJay, because you have unwavering belief.
Consequently, you should admit that, among your fellow disciples, healings, speaking in tongues, picking up snakes, and so forth, are things that you should rightly experience (that is, not everyone
should be able to do all these things, but that some amongst modern-day disciples should have these abilities).
If we follow what the Bible teaches, yes, we should be considered as disciples, not apostles.
After reading so many posts you should know my position regarding supernatural gifts.
Good for John. What basis does he have for this? You obviously are simply taking his word for it, but as KellyJay has said: where does it say that these gifts were temporary? No where. Where does it suggest that these gifts are to be present amongst those who truly believe? Quite a few places.
No, I'm not taking just his word for it. I Corinthians 13 says these gifts were temporary. Please read my previous post to KellyJay.
Sure! I think Jesus meant this, too. Are you suggesting there are no true disciples around anymore?
Honestly, again I don't know where have you picked this idea from; not from my words.
Of course I believe in modern day disciples; true Christians are disciples.
Regards
20 Sep 06
Originally posted by xpoferensWhen all the gospels, letters, and the book of Revelation were complete and in circulation, the canon was complete.
Hi Kelly,
Just a quick answer.
The scriptures I'm referring to are always the same:
[b]Regarding the fact that the gifts would cease:
I Corinthians 13 - supernatural spiritual gifts would cease when that which is perfect/complete would come (i.e. all the writings God inspired and considered necessary for His Word to be complete/perfe ...[text shortened]... is naturally related with the cessation of supernatural gifts.
Regards
xpoferens[/b]
Just because these writings at that time (I century) had not yet been put together and considered as "The New Testament" of the Bible, it doesn't mean God didn't consider them as part of it.
Note: I hadn't addressed this before, since I think this is a whole different discussion altogether, although it is naturally related with the cessation of supernatural gifts.
Regards
xpoferens
This is its own topic.
Kelly
20 Sep 06
3 edits
Originally posted by xpoferensThere is nothing in scripture that leads me to accept your point on its
Hi Kelly,
Just a quick answer.
The scriptures I'm referring to are always the same:
[b]Regarding the fact that the gifts would cease:
I Corinthians 13 - supernatural spiritual gifts would cease when that which is perfect/complete would come (i.e. all the writings God inspired and considered necessary for His Word to be complete/perfe is naturally related with the cessation of supernatural gifts.
Regards
xpoferens[/b]
face; no where is there any mention of the church waiting for some
letters to be written before God stops moving among his people. Even
within this text in context you have to read into it something that isn’t
there to even remotely come up with such a thing; moreover, if you
remove our chapters and verses and simply read the letter as a letter,
the flow of the letter doesn’t even suggest that either. As I pointed
out there have been times that people were given gifts without the
laying on of hands with dispels your rule, you just choose to call them
exceptions to a rule. The thing I find most odd about your belief in
this book is that if you read the whole book it slams your belief as we
are told to seek these gifts, we are told that God appoints those in
position of the church you have me to disregard what scripture says to
do, that is to seek these gifts, to satisfy a position that must explain
away the areas where it obviously isn’t true. Have you read the full
book of Corinthians? The gifts of the Spirit are manifestations of the
Spirit of God.
1 Corinthians 12 4-11
Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another The interpretation of tongues: But all these worketh that one and The selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
It is God who in parts His Spirit and God who gives the gifts to the
building up of the body of Christ. We are told to seek these, not
ignore them, what you are saying goes against scripture and is not
supported by it unless you add to the Word by reading into the text
things that are not there. I’m not denying the importance of laying of
hands, but as we have already agreed upon once before, these are
God gifts not the apostles gifts.
1 Corinthians 12 27-31
Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
God appoints not only who gets what gifts, but also what positions
within the body of Christ we are in too. Even if I for second believed
what you are promoting, that only apostles could give the gifts, who is
to say God does not appoint more apostles? We know that both 11
and 12 were not the number of apostles. and there were to be no
more.
There were a lot of things done by the laying of hands, it is symbolic
as God respects authority much more than we do. When one is sick
we are told to have people lay hands on them.
James 5:13-15 (King James Version)
Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms. Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
20 Sep 06
Originally posted by KellyJayKellyJay,
There is nothing in scripture that leads me to accept your point on its
face; no where is there any mention of the church waiting for some
letters to be written before God stops moving among his people. Even
within this text in context you have to read into it something that isn’t
there to even remotely come up with such a thing; moreover, if you
remov ...[text shortened]... and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.[/b]
If you are so sure, I don't think I will spend more time with this issue, since I think I've done my part.
Nevertheless, I'll address vistesd's post, since he brought up some interesting issues.
Take care.
xpoferens