17 Sep 06
Originally posted by xpoferensI am telling you God moves and the laying on of hands by an
Well KellyJay, the same applies to you, with one difference, you haven't shown me that was not a rule.
You have not discussed what I said about Acts 2 and 10.
You have not refuted my explanations for both exceptions, so to me that was a rule.
Regards
apostle is not required, and there are both times when there is
a laying on of hands, and times when it does not happen. I would
point out to you that you admit these are real verses of scripture.
I believe my point is made, you think exceptions are needed, and
they are if someone believes as you do. I just take it as it is
written and don't try to add rules that must be explained away.
Kelly
17 Sep 06
Originally posted by xpoferensNot to the ones I read. That doesn't address the points I'm asking
Let me ask you something, are there new books being added to the Bible?
No.
Why not? Because supernatural revelation of new knowledge has ceased as well as every other supernatural gift. (I Corinthians 13). They would all cease at the same time.
Regards
you to make any more than the fact I cannot fly using my arms alone
doesn't mean that my son cannot ride a skate board.
Kelly
17 Sep 06
2 edits
The Apostle Paul was very balanced about the use of miraculous gifts. He understood that God wanted Christ to be worked into His people that they lived by Him. Gift can be a kind of borrowed item. But life is what a person is really constituted with.
Paul instructed Timothy to take the natural way of healing on one occasion. On another he left a co-worker ill in a certain city. He did not provide them with a prayer cloth or request miraculous healing. Whether the gifts had ceased or not is not really the issue. The issue is that a mature man of God needs character built up within him.
Paul listed endurance as one of the qualifications of apostleship. It was not only ability to do miracles that sealed his apostleship. It was his great endurance. How could God build up endurance in a man if every time he is in a problem God performs a miracle of deliverance. Endurance requires long suffering in Christ and enjoying grace.
To build up character in His children God will not always let gift be the quick fix to everything. Gift can be like a borrowed item. But Christ wrought into one's character is the life that the person lives.
The new testament church needs the solid maturity of life much more than the miraculous acts of gifts. We should not despise spiritual gifts. But we should see that the building of character through transformation is more lasting than the excercise of miraculous gifts.
17 Sep 06
Originally posted by KellyJayKellyJay,
I am telling you God moves and the laying on of hands by an
apostle is not required, and there are both times when there is
a laying on of hands, and times when it does not happen. I would
point out to you that you admit these are real verses of scripture.
I believe my point is made, you think exceptions are needed, and
they are if someone believes as ...[text shortened]... I just take it as it is
written and don't try to add rules that must be explained away.
Kelly
My time is precious (so is your, I suppose) and I don't think I can go on forever end ever discussing this with you.
My point is made. You can read all my posts to fully understand what I mean.
If you think you take the scriptures as it is, please allow me to strongly disagree.
All the best.
Regards
17 Sep 06
1 edit
Originally posted by jaywillHi jaywill,
The Apostle Paul was very balanced about the use of miraculous gifts. He understood that God wanted Christ to be worked into His people that they lived by Him. Gift can be a kind of borrowed item. But life is what a person is really constituted with.
Paul instructed Timothy to take the natural way of healing on one occasion. On another he left a co-wor ing of character through transformation is more lasting than the excercise of miraculous gifts.
Thanks for your insight; I tend to agree with most of it, naturally with the exception that these gifts are still available today.
Mind you, I do believe in the power of prayer, and I do believe God performs miracles nowadays.
What I don't believe is that a person can speak foreign languages supernaturally, heal or ressurect, prophesize, et cetera.
Regards
xpoferens
17 Sep 06
3 edits
Originally posted by KellyJayExcellent and valid questions. At what point did the “apostolate” end? What about apostolic succession? As you put it, what is/was the “apostolic age?”
I do have other questions for you too, who appoints who is and is
not an apostle? You never told me why you think that Paul was
talking about the Bible, if he was what version of the Bible or scripture,
in what language, and so on do you suppose Paul was talking about?
I think this question is important if the written Word was enough to
stop the Holy S ...[text shortened]... ted
scripture perfected and do we have the full collection still available
to us today?
Kelly
> NRS Ephesians 4:7 But each of us was given grace according to the measure of Christ's gift.
8 Therefore it is said, "When he ascended on high he made captivity itself a captive; he gave gifts to his people." ... 11 and he gave that some would be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers,12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ,13 until all of us come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to maturity, to the measure of the full stature of Christ. (Phrase in bold is exactly translated, as opposed to the NRS version; the words "would be" in verse 11 do not appear in the Greek).
Now, “was given” in verse 7, and “gave” in verse 11 are both aorist: that is generally translated as past tense, but does not necessarily imply completed (‘”perfect&rdquo😉 action. Duration is left “undetermined” (aoristos). Therefore, it must be interpreted from context. katavtesomen (“come” ) in verse 13 is also aorist, but it is subjunctive mood—indicating contingency, where something is objectively possible, but not yet actual (at the time of the statement).
____________________________
Where is the indication that the apostolate ended? There were apparently other apostles after the twelve plus Paul, including a woman, Junia (see below).
Nor is there any indication that Paul, for example, thought he was writing “holy script” that would one day be part of a “canon” of scripture—Second Timothy 4:14 notwithstanding (see exegesis below)—that would replace the activity of the Holy Spirit, and the imparted gifts. [NOTE: I have also exegeted Jude 1:3 below.]
______________________________
Junia, the Apostle
> NRS Romans 16:7 Greet Andronicus and Junia, my relatives who were in prison with me; they are prominent among [or within] the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was.
Junia is a woman. In the Greek, her name is Iounian, and is feminine, accusative, singular in form.
The NIV translation says: “They are outstanding among the apostles” (as does the NAS). KJV says: “who are of note among the apostles.” NJB says: “Greetings to those outstanding apostles,...”
The text is clear: Junia is a woman apostle. An apostolos is one sent to proclaim a message, in this case the gospel message. And, as an apostle, Junia is in the top ranks of the “ecclesial structure” as outlined by Paul—
> NRS 1 Corinthians 12:28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers; then deeds of power, then gifts of healing, forms of assistance, forms of leadership, various kinds of tongues.
Second Timothy
> NRS 2 Timothy 3:14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it, 15 and how from childhood you have known the sacred writings that are able to instruct you for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 so that everyone who belongs to God may be proficient, equipped for every good work.
This appears to be the only NT text in which the word theopneustos, inspired or God-breathed, is found (or, at least, that I could find).
First of all, the ancient Greek texts have no punctuation, or differentiation between capital and lower-case letters, so the meaning partly derives from how it is punctuated.
Secondly, there is no verb at all in verse 16 in the Greek.
Thirdly, the word graphe in verse 16 just means “writing.” (The verb form is grapho; the noun occurs some 33 times in the NT, where it refers to OT texts.)
Fourthly, graphe refers back to iera grammata, “sacred learning,” in verse 15—learning which the reader has known “from childhood,” and can only refer to the Torah.
Therefore, verse 16 should be read as a continuation from 14 and 15—in a single continuous sentence, viz.—
“15 and how from childhood you [2nd person singular: i.e., Timothy] have known the sacred teachings [learnings, letters of the alphabet] that are able to instruct you for salvation through confidence (pisteos) in Christ Jesus,
16 all writing God-inspired and useful...etc., etc.”
It seems clear that this passage refers to the Hebrew scriptures.
_______________________________
Jude 1:3
> NRS Jude 1:3 Beloved, while eagerly preparing to write to you about the salvation we share, I find it necessary to write and appeal to you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints.
The phrase in contention here seems to be te hapaz paradotheise tois hagiois pistei, translated above as “ for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints.”
Rendering the Greek in word-order: the/that—once/one time/once for all—was/has-been entrusted—the/this/that—[to]—holy—faith/faithful.
Well, you can see the difficulty in translating! For example, hagois (holy) here is not a noun, but an adjective(in dative, matching case with pistei; and pistei is dative case. So, I would attempt a translation as follows:
“...that which has been once entrusted to the holy faithful.”
Note that hapaz can mean once, or one time, or once for all time (with some phrases it can mean more than once, but that does not seem to apply here). paradotheise is passive, and may well refer back to “salvation.” In that case, the whole verse could be rendered:
“Beloved, while eagerly preparing to write to you about the salvation we share, I find it necessary to write and appeal to you to contend for that which has been entrusted to the holy faithful.”
Whew! This shows the difficulty in both translation and interpretation! (Nemesio will, perhaps, point out any errors I have made; before I have to hunt for my Greek grammar again, please!)
______________________
The argument here revolves around interpretation, and there appears to be no exactness. Nevertheless, I would tend to go with Kelly—with no criticism of xpo!—because his reading is the more “open” one; and in cases like this, I have always thought that it was important not to impose “hermeneutical closure” where there is none clearly presented in the text. (Nice to agree with you once, KJ!)
17 Sep 06
1 edit
Originally posted by vistesdNice to see you around vistesd,
Excellent and valid questions. At what point did the “apostolate” end? [b]What about apostolic succession? As you put it, what is/was the “apostolic age?”
> NRS Ephesians 4:7 But each of us was given grace according to the measure of Christ's gift.
8 Therefore it is said, "When he ascended on high he made captivity itself a captive; he gave gif osure” where there is none clearly presented in the text. (Nice to agree with you once, KJ!)[/b]
I disagree with your position, but that's ok, right? :-)
I'll answer whenever I can.
Regards
[Edit: sure vistesd, be well you too 🙂]
17 Sep 06
1 edit
Originally posted by xpoferensI disagree with your position, but that's ok, right? :-)
Nice to see you around vistesd,
I disagree with your position, but that's ok, right? :-)
I'll answer whenever I can.
Regards
Of course! 🙂 I have been following this debate, and it really just gave me a chance to play some more with some translation stuff I’ve been playing with any way. I hope you noticed where I wrote: “with no criticism of xpo!”
I really can’t say who’s wrong or right here. My basic “point” (if there is one) has to do with the difficulty of exegeting and interpreting the texts.
Be well.
17 Sep 06
Originally posted by xpoferensThere is no dispute that the Disciples performed these signs. So, that these last verses
The Word (the New Testament) and the preaching was confirmed by the signs that accompanied the disciples.
Those signs are not needed any longer, since the Word has been confirmed and is now perfect/complete (The Holy Bible).
confirm the same is immaterial. However, verses 19 and 20 do not exclude the possibility
that non-Disciples performed it.
Indeed, the preceding verses strongly suggest it: those who believe (that is tois pisteusasin)
is distinct from the Disciples (mathetais) or Apostles (apostolos.
How do you explain this use of pisteusas then, because it certainly suggests that those who believe
is a far broader category than merely the Twelve or even the many more Apostles?
Nemesio
17 Sep 06
Originally posted by xpoferensDo you think than that God has lost His power, or His desire to act?
Hi jaywill,
Thanks for your insight; I tend to agree with most of it, naturally with the exception that these gifts are still available today.
Mind you, I do believe in the power of prayer, and I do believe God performs miracles nowadays.
What I don't believe is that a person can speak foreign languages supernaturally, heal or ressurect, prophesize, et cetera.
Regards
xpoferens
Kelly
17 Sep 06
Originally posted by xpoferensI only have 4 games left on this site and I'm going to take a break
KellyJay,
My time is precious (so is your, I suppose) and I don't think I can go on forever end ever discussing this with you.
My point is made. You can read all my posts to fully understand what I mean.
If you think you take the scriptures as it is, please allow me to strongly disagree.
All the best.
Regards
from here for awhile. My life is quite busy so our ability to debate will
be limited to just the time it takes me to complete my last 4 games,
and one of them I resign on my next move.
I've ask you on more than one occasion, what scriptures are you
referring to when you make the claim that something has come that
we no longer need the gifts of the Spirit of God? Was it when the
66 books in the Bible were put together, was it when they were
translated into English or French or Latin? Please, if you are going to
make the claims you are making get into the details of this.
Kelly
17 Sep 06
Originally posted by vistesd(Nice to agree with you once, KJ!)
Excellent and valid questions. At what point did the “apostolate” end? [b]What about apostolic succession? As you put it, what is/was the “apostolic age?”
> NRS Ephesians 4:7 But each of us was given grace according to the measure of Christ's gift.
8 Therefore it is said, "When he ascended on high he made captivity itself a captive; he gave gif ...[text shortened]... ure” where there is none clearly presented in the text. (Nice to agree with you once, KJ!)[/b]
Red letter day for me too. 🙂
Kelly
17 Sep 06
Originally posted by KellyJayFair enough,
I only have 4 games left on this site and I'm going to take a break
from here for awhile. My life is quite busy so our ability to debate will
be limited to just the time it takes me to complete my last 4 games,
and one of them I resign on my next move.
I've ask you on more than one occasion, what scriptures are you
referring to when you make the clai ...[text shortened]... ease, if you are going to
make the claims you are making get into the details of this.
Kelly
As soon as I have some time, I address it, ok?
Take care