12 Sep 06
Originally posted by Kevin McfarlandHi Kevin,
I have herd there is a diffrence between the gift of tounges and praying in tounges anyone hear this or have scripture to show this to be true? Thanks Kevin
In my opinion, these special gifts have ceased after the apostolic age.
KellyJay for example disagrees, and we are discussing the subject.
However, I think the Bible makes it clear that these tongues were actually foreign languages.
Regards
12 Sep 06
Originally posted by xpoferensIf I recall correctly the word used for the "tongues" in Acts are different from the tongues in Corinthians, but perhaps best to differ to Visteads on this one. The ones n Acts were foreign languages that were understood by all, where the ones in Corinthians were jibberish.
Hi Kevin,
In my opinion, these special gifts have ceased after the apostolic age.
KellyJay for example disagrees, and we are discussing the subject.
However, I think the Bible makes it clear that these tongues were actually foreign languages.
Regards
I believe there are cases of estatic tongues throughout many cultures and religions.
12 Sep 06
2 edits
Originally posted by kirksey957According to a quick search in the NRS version, the word “tongue” appears 20 times in the NT. The Greek word is glossa, which can mean a physical tongue, language, or simply utterance. For example, it is the word in Acts 2:3, speaking of “tongues of fire;” and in James 1:26, speaking about people who do not “bridle their tongues.”
If I recall correctly the word used for the "tongues" in Acts are different from the tongues in Corinthians, but perhaps best to differ to Visteads on this one. The ones n Acts were foreign languages that were understood by all, where the ones in Corinthians were jibberish.
I believe there are cases of estatic tongues throughout many cultures and religions.
It is also used in Acts 10:46 and 19.6. It is, as you note, Kirk, the word used by Paul in 1st Corinthians, chapters 12, 13 and 14.
The Greek word translated as “language” is dialektos. This occurs 10 times in the NT, in the following verses:
Acts 1:19
Acts 2:6
Acts 2:8
Acts 14:11
Acts 21:40
Acts 26:14
Col. 3:8
Rev. 5:9
Rev. 13:7
Rev. 14:6
The interesting thing, here, is that the author of Acts uses both words, in different places. Whether that hints at a deliberate differentiation, or is just stylistic, I don’t know.
As for the issue being debated here, I remain silent...
EDIT: In Acts 2:4 and 11, glossais is translated in tyhe NRS as “languages,” as it also where that English word appears in Revelation. That probably just muddies the waters even more...
13 Sep 06
Originally posted by Kevin Mcfarland1 Corinthians 14:14
I have herd there is a diffrence between the gift of tounges and praying in tounges anyone hear this or have scripture to show this to be true? Thanks Kevin
For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
Kelly
13 Sep 06
1 edit
Originally posted by xpoferensI do not have a lot of time and I now that I about think that it is a
Hi everyone,
KellyJay,
As in a previous post I stated that special gifts were over, and, since you questioned me about that, we started this conversation. I never said these gifts were more important than the Giver.
Regarding this subject, I surely believe in the power of prayer and faith, and I believe God listens to us and helps us with our prob ...[text shortened]... fts ceased.
Could you please tell me (in your opinion ) what is going on today?
Take care.
good thing, or I'd attempt to write a post the size of a book. 🙁 I
dislike reading those, but not as much as writing them. 🙂 I do believe
we will be better served just taking on one point of this discussion at a
time and dealing with it verses my attempts of hitting all the points at
once.
I understand you believe the 'special gifts' are over, and that is really
the point of discussion. You never implied the gifts were more
important than the Giver, I am sorry if my post made it sound like
you did. I wrote that to let you know that I do not think the gifts
are more important than the Giver. I do believe from time to time
people get drawn to gifts more than God and I find that unwise and
unhealthy spiritually speaking. Some people I have met think that
if someone does not display some spiritual gift they are not saved,
which I reject too. I believe God will sort all out that belong to Him,
and by their fruits we can know them, but even there I don’t want
to assume anything either. I heard someone say some believe they
are fruit inspectors attempting to judge who belongs to Christ and
who does not, I’m not interested in that job. I do know our job is
to love one another, all the rest is just stuff.
I find I’m on my third paragraph and have not really started my point
yet, so sorry!
1 Corinthians 13:8
Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
If 1 Corinthians 13:8 is one of the scriptures you think implies that
tongues (spiritual gifts) are going to cease, I have to ask you if you
think knowledge has also vanished away already when the last of the
New Testament letters were written? I have seen that entire passages
mentioned concerning the passing of gifts, I think if this is the verse
people are thinking of, they are mistaken.
I’ll start a post on tongues to continue that part of it, but to give you
a leg Up on where I’m coming from I suggest you continue reading
past the 13th Chapter. A lot of what I’m going to talk about will be
coming from 1 Corinthians 14 here is one portion.
1 Corinthians 14:2
For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
Kelly
13 Sep 06
Originally posted by KellyJayHi KellyJay,
I do not have a lot of time and I now that I about think that it is a
good thing, or I'd attempt to write a post the size of a book. 🙁 I
dislike reading those, but not as much as writing them. 🙂 I do believe
we will be better served just taking on one point of this discussion at a
time and dealing with it verses my attempts of hitting all the points a ...[text shortened]... unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
Kelly
Thanks for your post.
Lately I haven't had much time too, but I'll try to answer as soon as possible.
Take care
14 Sep 06
Originally posted by KellyJayHi KellyJay,
I do not have a lot of time and I now that I about think that it is a
good thing, or I'd attempt to write a post the size of a book. 🙁 I
dislike reading those, but not as much as writing them. 🙂 I do believe
we will be better served just taking on one point of this discussion at a
time and dealing with it verses my attempts of hitting all the points a ...[text shortened]... unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
Kelly
These tounges were the supernatural ability to speak an unlearned language; the same way, this knowledge was the ability for a disciple to have supernatural revelation.
After the closing of the apostolic age, new knowledge would not be available, nor tongues (languages) for that matter.
The following passage agrees with that; please notice the expression "the faith which was once and for all delivered unto the saints".
Jude 1:3 "Beloved, while I was giving all diligence to write unto you of our common salvation, I was constrained to write unto you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered unto the saints." (ASV)
Back to I Corinthians 13.
8 Love never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall be done away; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall be done away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part;
10 but when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away.
I think that "that which is perfect" is the Bible. The Greek reads: to teleion, “the complete thing.”
The complete thing, in oposition to that which is "in part".
Regarding I Corinthians 14:2, I understand these "unknown" tongues as being unknown to the speaker that had the gift, since he didn't learn them.
As I said before, if you read Acts, you'll see that with the exclusion of the Holy Spirit coming down directly in the day of Pentecost and to the first gentiles as well, these special gifts were always bestowed by the Holy Spirit upon the laying of hand of the apostles, and only of them.
After they died, these special gifts were over since the Holy Spirit only bestowed them by the laying of their (the apostles) hands.
Take care
14 Sep 06
2 edits
Originally posted by xpoferensAfter the closing of the apostolic age, new knowledge would not be available, nor tongues (languages) for that matter.
Hi KellyJay,
These tounges were the supernatural ability to speak an unlearned language; the same way, this knowledge was the ability for a disciple to have supernatural revelation.
After the closing of the apostolic age, new knowledge would not be available, nor tongues (languages) for that matter.
The following passage agrees with that; please n Spirit only bestowed them by the laying of their (the apostles) hands.
Take care
I don't believe this statement is proof, it does not come from scripture
is simply is you telling me what you believe, not why. What scripture
points to an 'apostolic age' where when it is over means that we would
not recieve anything new from God as far as knowledge or spiriitual
gifts? I understand that you look at "that which is perfect" to be the
full collective books of the Bible, my question to you is okay, but...
How do you know it is done, even if I accepted this belief of yours
what are number of the proper books of the Bible were we waiting
on before God stopped moving among us in a supernatural fashion?
There are quite a few books out there, one version has 66 another
has a few more, and it wasn't until years later were they all bound
together. So was God going to continue moving among us in a
'supernatual' way until we developed the means to make a single
work of the 66 books? What verses of scripture can you give me
to show me that God was going to do this to?
Your use of the words "the complete thing" and "in part" is very
vague, it could mean a lot of things and what we are discussing
is very important. Why would it mean a collection of writtings and
then God doesn't move among us the same way? Why not instead
the Kingdom of God is complete when the last of us accept and
give our lives to God? That isn't what I call a very strong piece of
scripture to promote such a belief. In the opening of chapter 14
of Corinthians just after the verse you are using to dismiss the
age of spiritual gifts we are being told to seek them. I do not see
your use of 13 chapter of that verse a convincing argument to prove
your point in light of that very next chapter, nor do I see any reason
yet to accept there was an age where God was going to stop moving
among man like he has from the beginning of time.
14 Corinthians 1-4
1Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may
prophesy. 2For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not
unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in
the spirit he speaketh mysteries. 3But he that prophesieth speaketh
unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort. 4He that
speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that
prophesieth edifieth the church. "
Looking forward to your reply.
Kelly
14 Sep 06
3 edits
Originally posted by KellyJayHi,
[b]After the closing of the apostolic age, new knowledge would not be available, nor tongues (languages) for that matter.
I don't believe this statement is proof, it does not come from scripture
is simply is you telling me what you believe, not why. What scripture
points to an 'apostolic age' where when it is over means that we would
not reciev that
prophesieth edifieth the church. "
Looking forward to your reply.
Kelly[/b]
You don't always need specific sentences to accept something; I think the passage in I Corinthians 13 speak about a cessation and the one in Jude speak about "the faith which was once and for all delivered unto the saints". Once and for all.
As well, you haven't yet told me what you think about what is written in the book of Acts concerning the way these gifts were bestowed.
Inference is the act or process of deriving a conclusion based solely on what one already knows (according to wikipedia).
If you put all together, you'll see there is a strong evidence these gifts are over.
KellyJay, I'm not using just I Corinthians 13 to try to make may point; I'm using Jude and the book of Acts.
Every epistle in the Bible has a general scope for all mankind, with commandments, lessons and examples. However, we cannot forget these epistles (letters) [edit: were in first instance] directed to certain people or groups of people. The Corinthian Church had problems concerning these gifts, so Paul is addressing that issue.
In I Corinthians 14 Paul urges people to seek some of these gifts? Yes, but he is addressing them not us, since other passages explicitly or implicitly say these gifts would be over.
I've read I Corinthians 13, Jude 3 [edit: 3], the book of Acts, and I've got to the conclusion that these words of Paul are directed to the Corinthians; they would apply to us today, naturally, if only these gifts had not ceased.
You cannot concentrate all you efforts in Corinthians forgetting Acts, since that book tells us some of the early story of the Church.
Please tell me one thing, do you keep the Sabbath? If you don't, why not?
Where is the specific sentence in the New Testament that says you should stop keeping it?
One get's to that conclusion by reading passages that have that implied.
What is happening today with charismatic movements is something else; I can address that point if you wish.
Take care
14 Sep 06
4 edits
Originally posted by FreakyKBHSo God is no longer able to heal? Where does it say that God stopped healing people or stopped having the power or will to heal people? Is healing childish? Where does it say that Paul healed people? Is it not God working through Paul? I have witnessed healing in others. I know God has and continues to heal from personal experience.
No, the gifts that Paul spoke of as passing away in 1 Corinthians 13 have, indeed, expired. Even within that passage, Paul speaks of putting away childish things and becoming as a man. In another passage, Paul speaks of his inability to heal any longer.
All signposts of the gospels and the epistles point to the efficacy of the soon-to-be completed Scripture, which we have in our possession today.
I have found that the limitations of faith often correspond to the limitations of the human mind as well as the limitations imposed upon God.
14 Sep 06
1 edit
Originally posted by whodeyI never said God didn't heal any longer. I believe in the power of prayer.
So God is no longer able to heal? Where does it say that God stopped healing people or stopped having the power or will to heal people? Is healing childish? Where does it say that Paul healed people? Is it not God working through Paul? I have witnessed healing in others. I know God has and continues to heal from personal experience.
Regards
[Edit: Whooops, sorry, this wasn't addressed to me]
15 Sep 06
Originally posted by xpoferensActually I don't see anything yet that suggests God was going to stop
Hi,
You don't always need specific sentences to accept something; I think the passage in I Corinthians 13 speak about a cessation and the one in Jude speak about "the faith which was once and for all delivered unto the saints". Once and for all.
As well, you haven't yet told me what you think about what is written in the book of Acts concerning the ...[text shortened]... matic movements is something else; I can address that point if you wish.
Take care
moving through His people at all, not one reference in any scripture.
The only thing I get so far is that "...the faith which was once and for
all delivered unto the saints." Okay, the faith was once and for all
delivered unto the saints, and that says what about the gifts of the
Spirit being taken away from the body of Christ? You are suggesting
that God is going to deny something in other passages of scripture
God tells us to seek, that seems a bit odd to me.
1 Corinthians 14:39
Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
Since the Word tells us to seek them; I do not see any scripture yet
that even hints that the gifts of the Spirit were going to be denied the
body. As far as the book of Acts and the gifts of the Spirit is concern it
was not the people but God that gave the gifts. They are after all gifts
of the Spirit of God, not man, it isn't man that is giving them. Was
there a laying on of hands when the Spirit fell on the people in the
upper room in Acts 2, or did God just do what God wanted?
Kelly
15 Sep 06
Originally posted by KellyJayHi KellyJay,
Actually I don't see anything yet that suggests God was going to stop
moving through His people at all, not one reference in any scripture.
The only thing I get so far is that "...the faith which was once and for
all delivered unto the saints." Okay, the faith was once and for all
delivered unto the saints, and that says what about the gifts of the
Spi ...[text shortened]... ell on the people in the
upper room in Acts 2, or did God just do what God wanted?
Kelly
Regarding the book of Jude and its sentence "...the faith which was once and for all delivered unto the saints.", it should be clear that it is referring to knowledge, not tongues.
Since knowledge was one of the things that would cease I thought it would be appropriate to mention the verse.
What you said regarding what happened in Acts 2 is correct (and Acts 10 as well), but you forgot to see what was the normal way these gifts were given.
Sure it was God that gave the gifts, but by the laying of hands of the apostles.
In all of your posts, you have continuously ignored this point.
xpoferens