Originally posted by xpoferens
One thing I said was: I believe the rule was that these gifts were only imparted unto disciples by the laying of hand of the apostles (two exceptions to this rule).
Well, you believe this in spite of Jesus's clear words to the contrary,
that those having believed will express these gifts, as per the
Marcan reference I've cited above with the Greek. The word 'apostle'
(or even 'disciple'😉 is not present
Please allow me to say: "you are perverting my language severely."
I am not intending to do so, but to show you how your belief is in
contrast to the language of the Bible.
If we follow what the Bible teaches, yes, we should be considered as disciples, not apostles.
Sure. I agree. And as a consequence, as one 'having believed' you
should be open to the possibility that another believer will express any
of the variety of gifts in question.
No, I'm not taking just his word for it. I Corinthians 13 says these gifts were temporary. Please read my previous post to KellyJay.
Yes, St Paul said this, but he failed to specify precisely when, so just
like the Parousia, one would has no means by which to judge that the
time frame about which St Paul was talking (if St Paul even knew,
given that prophets don't always know the time frame of their prophesies).
By contrast, Jesus said explicitly that believers will manifest these signs.
This language does not suggest any time frame.
The logical conclusion is that the signs will fade when there are no
more believers, only knowers (at the Second Coming).
Of course I believe in modern day disciples; true Christians are disciples.
Of course you do. But you don't believe Jesus when He said that
believers will manifest these signs, and you do so on the basis of
St Paul's prediction that tongues will cease at some point.
Indeed, St Paul wrote: If there are prophecies, they will be brought to
nothing; if tongues, they will cease; if knowledge, it will be brought to
nothing. For we know partially and we prophesy partially, but when
the perfect comes the partial will pass away. (I Cor 13:8b-10)
Has the perfect come, do you think, some time between the time that
St Paul wrote this letter (circa 50-60 CE)? If it hasn't then the partial
hasn't passed away. And, if the partial hasn't passed away, then
people can still prophesy in part. If there are prophesies, then why
not tongues?
Nemesio
Originally posted by NemesioHi Nemesio,
Originally posted by xpoferens
[b]One thing I said was: I believe the rule was that these gifts were only imparted unto disciples by the laying of hand of the apostles (two exceptions to this rule).
Well, you believe this in spite of Jesus's clear words to the contrary,
that those having believed will express these gifts, as per the
l prophesy in part. If there are prophesies, then why
not tongues?
Nemesio[/b]
Yes, Marcan reference does not mention apostles nor disciples, but "believers". As I said, I think these believers mentioned by Jesus are true believers (see Strong's reference), therefore, Jesus was refering to both apostles and disciples.
I consider the perfect/complete mentioned in I Corintians 13:10 as being the writings of the New Testament, so yes, I consider the "perfect/complete" has come.
Verse 8 considers these gifts would be over.
In verse 9 and 10 contrast is made between partial and complete/perfect knowledge. When this complete knowledge would come, these gifts would be over.
I think the writings that came to be grouped as the New Testament brought the complete knowledge mentioned in I Corinthians 13.
No new writings have been added to the New Testament (no new knowledge), therefore, I consider this (new knowledge or revelation) and every other supernatural gift as over.
If they are not over, then they should all be witnessed today, and when I say all, I mean ALL.
Taking up serpents, drinking any deadly thing, healing the sick, ressurecting the dead, speaking unlearned foreign languages, prophesizing, et cetera.
I sincerely do not think this happens today.
Regards
[EDIT: Regarding healing, I believe in the power of prayer, and I believe God heals, immediately or not. What I don't believe is that a disciple can have (nowadays) the gift of touching a person and healing them immediately, as it used to be in the 1st century]
Originally posted by xpoferensYou may want to read a book called "Salvation on Sand Mountain" by Dennis Covington. One of the best books I have read. It occurs in my backyard....well almost.
Hi Nemesio,
Yes, Marcan reference does not mention apostles nor disciples, but "believers". As I said, I think these believers mentioned by Jesus are true believers (see Strong's reference), therefore, Jesus was refering to both apostles and disciples.
I consider the perfect/complete mentioned in I Corintians 13:10 as being the writings of the New T ...[text shortened]... guages, prophesizing, et cetera.
I sincerely do not think this happens today.
Regards
Originally posted by kirksey957Hi kirksey, long time no hear.
You may want to read a book called "Salvation on Sand Mountain" by Dennis Covington. One of the best books I have read. It occurs in my backyard....well almost.
This is the second book you recommend me.
Thanks, I'll read about it in the net.
Regards
Originally posted by xpoferens
Yes, Marcan reference does not mention apostles nor disciples, but "believers". As I said, I think these believers mentioned by Jesus are true believers (see Strong's reference), therefore, Jesus was refering to both apostles and disciples.
There is no reason to make this conclusion, other than it fits with your pre-existing model.
Remember, Jesus was speaking directly to the Disciples (the Apostles). What you are suggesting
Jesus said was this:
To Apostles: Go out into the world and preach the Gospel. You Apostles who believe will be saved.
You Apostles who don't believe will be condemned. You Apostles who believe will be accompanied
by signs.
But this isn't what Jesus said! He is giving the imperative command to go preach the Gospel and
that those who believe (presumably have received the good news) will be saved. Any other reading
doesn't concord with the language used.
You can believe what you want, but it makes no sense in light of the text.
I consider the perfect/complete mentioned in I Corintians 13:10 as being the writings of the New Testament, so yes, I consider the "perfect/complete" has come.
This also makes no sense. St Paul says in verse 12 that he now knows in part, but he will know
fully. St Paul wasn't even alive when the elements of the NT were completed, much less when
they were compiled.
So, what could he have meant that he would know fully? When the Second Coming transpired?
Most probably. When he died and could talk it over with God? Possibly.
Until you can explain why St Paul thought that he would know fully, you have no logical reason to
conclude that verse 10 (completion) has taken place.
No new writings have been added to the New Testament (no new knowledge), therefore, I consider this (new knowledge or revelation) and every other supernatural gift as over.
Just because none has doesn't entail that none will. What if we found another genuine letter by
St Paul (like the one to the Laodicians)? You would reject its authority?
If they are not over, then they should all be witnessed today, and when I say all, I mean ALL.
Well, first of all, St Paul makes it clear that different people will exhibit different gifts. So, one
person wouldn't do all these things. And, as for 'resurrecting the dead,' that's a bogus charge;
Jesus made no such promise. And, it could be that there are very few genuinely faithful today,
such that the signs shown are rare. Or perhaps they do them in secret where doubting Thomases
like you won't scoff.
Frankly, I seem to see on television all sorts of televangelists making claims about healing people,
speaking in tongues, prophesying and so forth.
Maybe your disbelief in these things makes you blind to their truth?
Nemesio
Originally posted by NemesioNemesio,
Originally posted by xpoferens
[b]Yes, Marcan reference does not mention apostles nor disciples, but "believers". As I said, I think these believers mentioned by Jesus are true believers (see Strong's reference), therefore, Jesus was refering to both apostles and disciples.
There is no reason to make this conclusion, other than it fits with y
Maybe your disbelief in these things makes you blind to their truth?
Nemesio[/b]
Regarding the first part of your post, it seems to me we are claiming the same. What you said is what I've been trying to say, and I'm sure my paragraph conveys that idea.
There's just one difference, I claim these gifts are over 🙂
This also makes no sense. St Paul says in verse 12 that he now knows in part, but he will know fully. St Paul wasn't even alive when the elements of the NT were completed, much less when they were compiled.
So, what could he have meant that he would know fully? When the Second Coming transpired?
Most probably. When he died and could talk it over with God? Possibly.
Until you can explain why St Paul thought that he would know fully, you have no logical reason to conclude that verse 10 (completion) has taken place.
Well, Paul didn't have to know when he would eventually die.
Please notice what he said in chapter 15:51-52, regarding the Parousia.
"51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We all shall not sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. "
He said "We all shall not sleep" and "we shall be changed". Well, Paul is dead, however, he used the word "we" and refered to himself as being in the group of the living.
Maybe God didn't reveal to Paul when he would die, therefore, in chapter 13 and 15, he used "I" and "we" as if he would be alive when both events happened.
For example, not even Jesus knew when His second coming would happen; why would Paul know when this and that event would occur?
Just because none has doesn't entail that none will. What if we found another genuine letter by St Paul (like the one to the Laodicians)? You would reject its authority?
Well, that is a big IF; only God knows whether there are or there are not lost letters, anyway, If God is in charge, and if we have in the New Testament a certain number of books, it is because it was meant that way.
But let us suppose a new (old) letter appeared; well, in any case it would have been written when supernatural knowledge and revelation were still available, wouldn't it?
Well, first of all, St Paul makes it clear that different people will exhibit different gifts. So, one person wouldn't do all these things. And, as for 'resurrecting the dead,' that's a bogus charge;
Jesus made no such promise.
I didn't say the disciples would all have all the gifts; what I said is that these gifts would all end at the same time.
Regarding the gift of resurrecting the dead, Jesus' promise might not be recorded in the Gospels, but the truth is, Peter resurrected Tabitha from the dead.
Acts 9
36 Now there was at Joppa a certain disciple named Tabitha, which by interpretation is called Dorcas: this woman was full of good works and almsdeeds which she did.
37 And it came to pass in those days, that she fell sick, and died: and when they had washed her, they laid her in an upper chamber.
38 And as Lydda was nigh unto Joppa, the disciples, hearing that Peter was there, sent two men unto him, entreating him, Delay not to come on unto us.
39 And Peter arose and went with them. And when he was come, they brought him into the upper chamber: and all the widows stood by him weeping, and showing the coats and garments which Dorcas made, while she was with them.
40 But Peter put them all forth, and kneeled down and prayed; and turning to the body, he said, Tabitha, arise. And she opened her eyes; and when she saw Peter, she sat up.
41 And he gave her his hand, and raised her up; and calling the saints and widows, he presented her alive.
42 And it became known throughout all Joppa: and many believed on the Lord.
And, it could be that there are very few genuinely faithful today, such that the signs shown are rare. Or perhaps they do them in secret where doubting Thomases like you won't scoff.
Thomases like me? 🙂
Come on Nemesio, the disciples used these gifts publicly so that they could be an evidence to unbelievers; actually, that was the gifts' main purpose, to confirm the word.
If people nowadays have those gifts, what do they have to hide? Shouldn't they make use of them publicly in order to convert Thomases, since Thomases need to see, rather than just believe what other people say?
Frankly, I seem to see on television all sorts of televangelists making claims about healing people, speaking in tongues, prophesying and so forth.
Claims, claims, and more claims, I've heared them too.
Maybe your disbelief in these things makes you blind to their truth?
Or maybe your belief in these things makes you blind to their untruth?
Take care.
xpoferens
Originally posted by 7ate9So if you hav statistics on what percentage of car salesmen claim to be Christians, and what percentage of them want to sell people a Honda, then it follows that for them "Christian salvation" is to buy a Honda?
76% of Americans are recorded as Christians, which you would assume they would have salvation because of democracy making this appropriate, suitable and good to take.
in Iraq they have suffered 14000+ deaths because of a supposed 'Christian man's crusade' against people he considers 'evil'.
bearing this in mind do you really think people in Iraq would e ...[text shortened]... n want, 'salvation' when 'salvation' is the very thing that has taken their lives away?
So let's say 70% of car salesmen claim to be Christians. And for a good percentage of them having a Toyota is the suitable, appropriate automobile to have for a comfortable life. So we deduce from this that this percentage of Christians belief salvation is to buy a Toyota?
I realize the analogy may not be perfect. But Kelly is right that you are misunderstanding salvation. I hope it is not purposeful.
When I want to consider what salvation is in the Bible I think of Romans 5:10 -
"For if we, bewing enemies, were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more we will be saved in His life, having been reconceiled"
Firstly, salvation has a legal aspect of being reconciled to an old enemy. We need to be reconciled from being an enemy against God. We need the enmity and the adverse relationship against God taken away. Christ died for us to reconcile us to God. The justice do to the sinner, the sinner accepts, that is has fallen on Christ instead of the sinner.
Secondly, there is something "much more" after this judicial reconcilation. After being placed in a reconciled position with God, there is something "much more" to complete salvation. That is "we will be saved in His life"
Christ is resurrected and alive. He is available and enterable. In the realm of His eternal life we will "much more" be saved. We are brought into oneness with this living Person. His resurrection life becomes a sphere and realm within which we live and move. And in this realm His life dispenses into our life and saves us from everything replacing God as our life. All things and all matters which occupy a greater part of our life beside the divine Spirit of God are the things from which we need to be saved. We need to be saved from everything that replaces God in our hearts.
We need to much more be saved in the realm of His life. This is like a sickly branch being grafted into a rich and healthy tree. The health of the tree swallows up the defects of the sick branch because the life of the healthy tree flows into the grafted branch. Salvation is to be grafted into the living Person of the Son of God. Then we can be saved in His life.
This salvation can take place within any political system. It is a salvation that demonstrated its indestructible power under the Roman Empire. It could not be killed by the Communist system. And it cannot be drowned out by the Capitalist system. It is a salvation within any form of social system devised by man.
Originally posted by 7ate9Being saved and being an American are not the same thing, you do
76% of Americans are recorded as Christians, which you would assume they would have salvation because of democracy making this appropriate, suitable and good to take.
in Iraq they have suffered 14000+ deaths because of a supposed 'Christian man's crusade' against people he considers 'evil'.
bearing this in mind do you really think people in Iraq would e ...[text shortened]... n want, 'salvation' when 'salvation' is the very thing that has taken their lives away?
not understand salvation, again you are making that quite plain by
your posts. Being saved and living in a democracy isn't the samething
either, salvation is getting right with God through Jesus Christ, if
anything American is moving away from God not towards Him. What is
going on with Iraq and salvation has more to do with wars and
rumors of wars towards the end of time when all accounts between
man and God will be settled.
Kelly
If I may add a little to the conversation, I would like to focus on the initiation of the miraculous gifts, tongues.
This is a topic that illustrates the need for believers in all ages to stay on task, relative to doctrine. When believers fail to keep their minds stayed on doctrine, the inevitable outcome will be a replacement of the doctrine with erratic emotion and/or doctrine of demons. Such is the case with tongues.
Until December 31, 1899/January 01, 1900, the issue of tongues (and the subsequent obsession with miraculous gifts) was not a prevalent part of church activity. While there were sparodic cult organizations (The Gift People out of New England, for example), it wasn't until a watchnight service on the last day of the 19th century at Bethel Bible Institute in Topeka, Kansas, that tongues entered the scene again.
On that night, the leaders of BBI, founded by Charles Parham, responded to the request of Agnes Ozman for the laying on of hands in order for her to manifest the baptism of the Holy Spirit, as she and other students were reading from the book of Acts. According to their interpretation of the book, these gifts should be available for believers today.
Since that time, the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement has touched virtually every denomination of the Church (as well as spawning its own denominations), up to and including the time in which we find ourselves. But was the basis for Ozman's request legitimate? Was the manifestation truly a gift of the Holy Spirit--- a post-salvation baptism? Does the Bible support such a stance, or were the miraculous gifts designated only for a specific time?
I once a had a guy tell me that if I did not speak in tounges that I did not have God and that I was not saved. I asked him about the thief on the cross next to Jesus. Jesus told this thief today you will be with me in paradise. While batism is an outward sign of an inward truth for the christian this is not what saves a christian. I know Christians will disagree with that statement but that is what the bible says about the subject.
Manny
Originally posted by menace71What statement are you refering to that the Bible says? I know
I once a had a guy tell me that if I did not speak in tounges that I did not have God and that I was not saved. I asked him about the thief on the cross next to Jesus. Jesus told this thief today you will be with me in paradise. While batism is an outward sign of an inward truth for the christian this is not what saves a christian. I know Christians will disagree with that statement but that is what the bible says about the subject.
Manny
Christians that make that claim too, I disagree with them as well,
but you said "...but that is what the bible says about the subject."
yet you did not give us a chapter and verse to show us what you
were talking about.
Kelly