03 Sep 19
@kellyjay saidYou are entitled to share your perspectives on what "divine laws" there are and to declare them to be, in your opinion, based on "absolute truths".
We could draw a line with law and absolute truth, where someone could by their will break the law or obey it. Having the choice doesn’t do away with the law.
03 Sep 19
@dj2becker saidNo, I asked you this question
Do you believe the deity of Christ for example is the ultimate reality and that every knee shall in fact bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord? Or is it simply a subjective opinion you happen to have that only applies to people that happen to believe it ?
What specific element of “reality” are you talking about?
03 Sep 19
@fmf saidThe fact that some elements of ultimate reality are unknowable doesn't change the fact that it exists.
What you and I believe [variously] with regard to what the "ultimate reality" might be, in terms of spiritual and supernatural matters, is purely subjective and this is unaffected by either of us declaring our point of view to be "objective" or "absolute truth".
Before people knew that the Mariana Trench was the deepest part of the ocean, it was still the deepest part of the ocean. Before any European knew that Mt. Everest was the highest mountain, it was the highest mountain, even if they may have thought that some other mountain nearer by was.
04 Sep 19
@philokalia saidNeither of us knows what the "ultimate reality" is in terms of spiritual and supernatural matters, so neither your nor my personal opinion about what it is can be described as "objective".
The fact that some elements of ultimate reality are unknowable doesn't change the fact that it exists.
04 Sep 19
@philokalia saidThis stuff you have typed about the Mariana Trench and Mt. Everest doesn't further your case with regard to characterizing as objective your personal opinions about things you admit are "unknowable". Your personal opinions about "absolute truths" ~ in terms of "unknowable" spiritual and supernatural matters ~ are subjective, as are mine.
Before people knew that the Mariana Trench was the deepest part of the ocean, it was still the deepest part of the ocean. Before any European knew that Mt. Everest was the highest mountain, it was the highest mountain, even if they may have thought that some other mountain nearer by was.
04 Sep 19
@philokalia saidKellyJay has blanked everything out. He's been wittering away to someone he agrees with and has not tackled any of the efforts to engage what he says he believes.
What points have been being avoided?
04 Sep 19
@philokalia saidKellyJay, for years, has been arguing that if his personal opinion about reality converges with his personal opinions about his religious and moral beliefs, it conjures up "objective" and "absolute truth" that applies to everyone.
Has KellyJay been saying that he has objective proof for the existence of God and that it is absolutely knowable?
He believes that this being aware and certain of a convergence between his personal opinion about reality and his personal opinions about his religious and moral beliefs is not subjective at all.
It is no wonder he is basically incapable of debating the topic. I know, in the past, you have singled KellyJay out as a "great thinker" and great writer" in this community, but you should really let him argue his corner or let his deafening silence - his inability or unwillingness to engage in the discourse - speak for itself.
04 Sep 19
@philokalia saidNo point is being avoided. If you have the time that video is fun to watch and informative.
Oh, so, what is the big point being avoided?
04 Sep 19
@philokalia saidYet again, we stumble across a discussion that's going over your head, exacerbated by you being too lazy to read what people post. Words like "objective" and "immutable" and "absolute" and "universal" are merely adjectives with an intensifier function that religious people attach to their notions of "truth" regarding unknowable things [about supernatural causality and stuff that stems from conjecture about supernatural causality].
Oh, so, what is the big point being avoided?
These intensifier adjectives [which often have elements of self-aggrandizement and sanctimoniousness too] merely serve as a signal of how certain and sincere and constant they feel about their beliefs but do nothing to disguise the fact that what they are actually sharing are nothing more or less than their personal opinions ~ which are, of course, subjective.
04 Sep 19
OK, well, I am sure there are people who are obtuse like that, FMF.
I think it is important to acknowledge, though, that there can be subtle distinctions within positions....
For instance, a believer might say that it is impossible to prove to someone that there is a God, and that this is not objective... And that religions of good are truly beyond such discussion.
Yet, also, there is the insistence that one can know in a way that is subjective in the sense that it is not publicly verifiable information.
So, these two closely intertwined dancers might make it look like there is a contradiction in the argument...
But they each dance a separate dance while dancing the same dance.