01 Sep 19
@dj2becker saidAll we are doing here is sharing our personal opinions and perspectives.
For example you are assuming that your perspective that all views are subjective and that there is no ultimate truth is ultimately true, which it can’t be if there is no ultimate truth. So you are always arguing from a self defeating position.
01 Sep 19
@dj2becker saidI am not 'self-defeated' at all. Do you think your belief in "ultimate truth" adds any weight to your assertion that I am?
So you are always arguing from a self defeating position.
01 Sep 19
@dj2becker saidyou cannot know that the statement you just made is true in the absolute sense of the word
And yet you cannot know that the statement you just made is true in the absolute sense of the word if it is also just your subjective opinion assuming truth is merely relative.
Can you?
01 Sep 19
@secondson saidOpinions can be formulated, truth has to be discovered.
Exactly.
"The Truth" is not relativistic. It exists independent of one's opinion.
01 Sep 19
@kellyjay saidWhat you claim you have "discovered" about the "truth" is purely your personal opinion. In my opinion, religions claiming to know about a 'revealed God' ~ like yours - are formulations; virtually all religions promote formulated and codified sets of opinions about a creator being. You are free to subscribe to the one that makes you feel your subjectivity is substantiated and vindicated.
Opinions can be formulated, truth has to be discovered.
01 Sep 19
I heard about a pastor who was visiting one of his female parishioners. He went to the door, rang the bell and waited. No response, so he rang again. He could see there was a light on and again no response. He went round to see and there was a radio on. This is strange, he thought, and decided to just leave a note. Revelation 3, verse 20 came to mind and he wrote a little note to her saying: ‘Behold, I stand at the door and knock, if anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with them and they with me.’ He thought this was a very appropriate verse and he put it through the mailbox and walked away.
The following Sunday he saw the woman in church and she came up to him and just handed him a little note. When he looked at his note he saw that she had also written a verse on her note, and she had written this: Genesis 3, verse 10, ‘I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked, so I hid.’ “
(A random joke as I just can't stomach another thread by becker about absolute truth).
01 Sep 19
@ghost-of-a-duke saidCan truth be anything but absolute?
I heard about a pastor who was visiting one of his female parishioners. He went to the door, rang the bell and waited. No response, so he rang again. He could see there was a light on and again no response. He went round to see and there was a radio on. This is strange, he thought, and decided to just leave a note. Revelation 3, verse 20 came to mind and he wrote a ...[text shortened]... hid.’ “
(A random joke as I just can't stomach another thread by becker about absolute truth).
Not opinion, but the truth, since views always have to be altered due to new factual information, but a true statement will only be confirmed.
I have to say funny to the joke too. 🙂
There was a Priest, a Rabbi, and a Pastor fishing in a boat.
They had left all of the supplies on the shore.
The Rabbi says, "I'm going to get a drink."
He gets out of the boat, walks on top of the water to the shore, gets his drink and walks back.
The Priest says, "I'm going to get a drink."
He gets out of the boat, walks on top of the water to the shore, and gets his drink and walks back.
The Pastor is amazed at this and thinks if they can do it. He gets up steps out of the boat and sinks into the water.
The Rabbi says, "Should we tell him about the rocks we walked on?"
02 Sep 19
@ghost-of-a-duke saidI take it you believe everyone's truth is the truth for just them, and you don't believe in absolutes that would be for everyone? If that is true, then that is true for everyone, isn't it, making it an absolute truth for everyone, therefore, putting it in contradiction to the notion there isn't any absolutes?
Of course, everyone's own opinion happens to align with this 'real truth.' (In their own eyes at least).
Funny that.
@kellyjay saidYour "truths" - with regard to supernatural and spiritual things that have [to me and to many others] no credible empirical underpinning - are just your personal opinions in harness with your religious dogma.
I take it you believe everyone's truth is the truth for just them, and you don't believe in absolutes that would be for everyone? If that is true, then that is true for everyone, isn't it, making it an absolute truth for everyone, therefore, putting it in contradiction to the notion there isn't any absolutes?
You insisting that these personal opinions of yours - and the preferred dogma attendant thereto - are "true for everyone" is your prerogative.
Let's be clear about that: you are personally entitled to make assertions like the ones you do... the "north star" for everybody, the "immutable" truth, the "self-evident" truth, the "brute facts" about your chosen God figure, etc. etc.
But in affixing bolstering adjectives to your personal opinions about what you say is "true for everyone" ~ like "absolute" and "objective" ~ is firmly in the domain of religionist preaching to the choir.
Preaching to the choir is when like-minded people can feel their subjectivity feeding off subjectivity, and they can varnish the "answers" they agree upon with deep conviction and earnestness ~ and they convince trhemselves that this somehow generates universal objectivity.
02 Sep 19
@kellyjay saidMy point is Kelly, no one 'including you' can make any truth claims in absolute terms.
I take it you believe everyone's truth is the truth for just them, and you don't believe in absolutes that would be for everyone? If that is true, then that is true for everyone, isn't it, making it an absolute truth for everyone, therefore, putting it in contradiction to the notion there isn't any absolutes?
We (as finite creatures) simply don't have the ability to do that. Even when you put forward the notion of 'one God' who is the embodiment of this absolute truth, you still lack the means to evidence that such a God exists or discredit similar truth claims by other religions or non-religions.
02 Sep 19
1 edit
@ghost-of-a-duke saidWe can all make claims, but each of us has to discover the truth for what it is for ourselves. It is not because the truth is not out there. The Atheist who claims they have no faith is only expressing their mental attitude about a topic they are not claiming knowledge of a topic. Claiming topic knowledge is just that making a claim, but no one can suggest there is no truth, that is a claim that falls apart as soon as it is said due to contradiction.
My point is Kelly, no one 'including you' can make any truth claims in absolute terms.
We (as finite creatures) simply don't have the ability to do that. Even when you put forward the notion of 'one God' who is the embodiment of this absolute truth, you still lack the means to evidence that such a God exists or discredit similar truth claims by other religions or non-religions.
You would have to walk away from science if you think looking for truth cannot be done, you think science isn't looking for truth, or only opinions?
02 Sep 19
@kellyjay saidScience looks for deeper understanding, not absolute truth.
We can all make claims, but each of us has to discover the truth for what it is for ourselves. It is not because the truth is not out there. The Atheist who claims they have no faith is only expressing their mental attitude about a topic they are not claiming knowledge of a topic. Claiming topic knowledge is just that making a claim, but no one can suggest there is no truth, ...[text shortened]... think looking for truth cannot be done, you think science isn't looking for truth, or only opinions?
@ghost-of-a-duke saidOh please, we can grasp lies, untruths, errors in judgments, and come up with millions of ways to justify them thinking our understanding is deepening, no one wants that, what is desired is the truth! Understanding what is, should be the only thing that matters. Finding inventive ways to justify something that is not is meaningless and in the end, poison towards grasping the universe and life as it is.
Science looks for deeper understanding, not absolute truth.
The thing about this life we have and the universe we are in is it is a journey, one we take alone with a lot of other people. If we are seeking the truth, the truth will set us free, suggesting there is no such thing that is not valid, even denouncing truth cannot occur without contradiction.
Truth is absolute. If it is not, it is not valid as truth, and an absolute is true, denying this is a contradiction.
02 Sep 19
@kellyjay saidJust declare your personal opinions to be "the truth" or "valid" or "absolutely immutably objectively totally utterly indisputably self-evidently and universally true" if that's what you feel you need to do.
The thing about this life we have and the universe we are in is it is a journey, one we take alone with a lot of other people. If we are seeking the truth, the truth will set us free, suggesting there is no such thing that is not valid, even denouncing truth cannot occur without contradiction.