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@FMF
You seem to want to keep harping on my personal faith and experience. What now?
You like to claim that "Jesus is flowing through" you and that you are "becoming more like Jesus".
lol That's right.
What I have not done is what you are attempting to portray me as having done.
IE
"Look here everybody. I am about to flow Jesus. Ready? Here is comes."
"Look here everybody. I am to be like Jesus in this post. Ready? Here He comes."
Yes, I believe and experience Christ's promise to every believer in John 7:39. IF we are inwardly thirsty we may come to Jesus and believe into Him. Out of our innermost being will flow rivers of water of life.
I intend that I enjoy this TODAY, by the way.
Where'd the evidence of it?
Well, He did say "Out of his innermost being" . It is mainly something pertaining to being evidenced out from the believers innermost being.
Your personality and integrity has been degrading these last 2-3 years.
Even if it was true, which it is not, how would that stop the Lords promise from being true.
He who believes into Christ out of his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water.
You accusations don't stop the flow of the Holy Spirit in believers.
And Why should we trust you to verify it? An ATHEIST is going to confirm whether or not there is a Holy Spirit?, a flowing Holy Spirit.
All you can testify to is your THIRST. And you do.
Sorry FMF, accusations don't render null and void the New Testament. Don't you realize that the Christian church would have died centuries ago if accusations could have nullified Gods promises.
What indicators are there that you can cite that add any substance whatsoever to your frequent claims that "Jesus is flowing through"
What evidence do you cite that you'd welcome Jesus coming in ANY FORM WHATSOEVER ?
I met Christians who did something questionable when I was a seeking for God person. Didn't stop me.
Listen, there is not only the flowing of the Holy Spirit as life in the believer. There is also the cleansing of the blood for his failures and mistakes, of which I have made many.
Give it up.
Who shall bring a charge against God's chosen ones?
It is Christ Jesus who died and, rather who was raised, who is also at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. (Rom.8:34)
Now try this. Go in prayer to Christ Jesus and explain to God that I have been not too flowy for too long. SO THEN ... He should stop interceding for me.
Try that. Satan has been trying that for centuries, day and night, day and night.
So you can go join "the accuser of the brethren" and see if you get get the Triune God to renege on His eternal redemption.
Didn't you READ the book of Exodus or Deuteronomy or Numbers ? What obstacles of failure caused God to give up Israel? None, tough He did discipline them. He never gave up on them. And all israel will be saved STILL according to Paul.
He also will not fail to build His church. And YES by means of the rivers of living water of the Holy Spirit of divine life flowing through sometimes grumby Christians like me.
Besides, I have dealt with you with much patience, and you trashed it. Then I dealt with you in a harder way, and you trashed that as well. Whether in love or in argumentation you dont seem interested in Jesus flowing towards you in any regard.
And if I am WRONG ... then am I the only Christian you can converse with.
SO FMF, Yea, maybe I didn't seem so in the Spirit a bunch of times here. But then again maybe you HOPE to keep any Christ from even existing let alone extending His life towards you.
Check both possibilities.
you and that you are "becoming more like Jesus"? All I see you doing is spam bombing an online message board with doctrine and recoiling and spitting chips when there is debate or dissent. Where is the evidence to back your egocentric and pretentious claims?
Save your breath. Accusations won't stop me from testifying about these things.
Look, when I am ready to leave and post no more here, I'll leave and post no more here. Not when you say go. Talking of EGOCENTRISM?
You're not the official spokesman for the Spirituality Forum.
Get over yourself.
@sonship saidThis is sheer dodging.
What indicators are there that you can cite that add any substance whatsoever to your frequent claims that "Jesus is flowing through"
What evidence do you cite that you'd welcome Jesus coming in ANY FORM WHATSOEVER ?
I met Christians who did something questionable when I was a seeking for God person. Didn't stop me.
Listen, there is not only ...[text shortened]... SM?
You're not the official spokesman for the Spirituality Forum.
Get over yourself.
What evidence do you have to back your claims about yourself?
@sonship saidYou aren't really "testifying" though. You are simply making claims about yourself. What are some of the indicators that you have "become more like Jesus" than, say, 10 years ago? There must be more to it than you posting religious dogma all the time? What aspect or aspects of "Jesus" have you become more like? Say what they are. Then that would be testimony, and people could try to look and see if what you claim about yourself is true.
Accusations won't stop me from testifying about these things.
@sonship saidI am interested in you offering evidence - detectable in your demeanour, your moral compass, your deeds, your mindmap - that "Jesus is flowing towards you in any regard".
Whether in love or in argumentation you dont seem interested in Jesus flowing towards you in any regard.
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-Removed-You people have to be a little more understanding of sonships personality type. He is drawn to what he considers to be intelligent and knowledgeable men. These men are not insipired by God but to his ears and eyes they are saying what he wants to hear hence he places them on a pedestal and he constantly is drawn to their opinions. Imagine now he is quoting words from a hymn, a HYMN ... as a source of proof of the correctness of a biblical concept.
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@sonship
'Objective justification is actual because there is righteousness within us, indeed the righteousness of the God-man in both His divine and human natures, and our union with Him admits us into His righteousness for our justification. In this sense, God justifies our organic union with Christ.
Objective justification is NOT forensic in the sense that it is based on a righteousness that is external or alien to us and is externally imputed to us by God without regard for any righteousness within us.'
(Justification of Life)
With one single word, LSM has denied the gospel. They have given a very clear definition of the gospel, and then entirely negated it with the word “not”.
In summary, LSM describes how their doctrine of justification fits in with their belief that God’s ultimate purpose in all things is to express Himself through G0d-men.
https://contrast2.wordpress.com/2010/09/25/the-false-gospel-of-witness-lee-and-the-living-stream-ministries/comment-page-2/
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This is sheer dodging.
What evidence do you have to back your claims about yourself?
You have said on more than one occasion over the years that these things do not mean anything to you one way or the other.
What evidence do you offer that anything pertaining to the words of Jesus or the Christians' experience of Him means something to you now?
If you dont believe that the Holy Spirit has been imparted to me because I have believed in Christ, then just don't believe it.
If you say you see no evidence then the you just decide you see no evidence.
You won't be the first atheist to assign an F grade in "representing Jesus" to some Christian disciple he wanted to shut up.
Won't be the last.
Dont expect that you and I are going to get into a debate on this.
"No evidence in you."
"Yes evidence in me."
"No, no evidence in you. I should know. "
"Yes evidence in me. Here it is. "
You see no evidence of Christ living in me?
You run with that then.
The Sanhedrin complained of no evidence of the Father in Jesus either. There will always be some unbelievers who assume if there were evidence they would be the very first to know. They detect no evidence , so there's no Son of God, no God, no need of salvation, and the Bible cannot be trusted.
You run with that and see how it works out for you.
@sonship
The way LSM attempts to defend their view is to say ontologically the three members of the Trinity are distinct, but economically they are all one. However, LSM misunderstands what those terms mean and therefore misapply them. In his response to CRI, Norm Geisler notes:
The “operational [economic] Trinity” is, at best, only a way of speaking about the one and only essential Trinity’s activities, not His essential Being. But even here when one member of the Trinity acts in the world, He is still distinct from the other members, even if they are co-acting with Him. For example, when co-authors such as ourselves mingle our minds and act together by co-authoring the same thoughts and words in the same book, we are still in this action two different persons. And no such co-action justifies anyone calling Ron “Norm,” or calling Norm “Ron.” We are two really distinct persons with different names.
Using this artificial distinction, Lee and LSM teach what they call a “Processed God.”
The Bible reveals that God is immutable in His essence and that God has been processed in His economy. As the processed God, the Triune God has passed through crucial and interdependent steps in the divine economy in order to dispense Himself into His chosen and redeemed people…God’s process ultimately is related to becoming flesh through incarnation and becoming the life giving Spirit through resurrection.
Our Unchanging, Processed God
https://contrast2.wordpress.com/2010/09/25/the-false-gospel-of-witness-lee-and-the-living-stream-ministries/comment-page-2/
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Ghost,
This may take more than one post.
Copying from a website you wrote -
https://contrast2.wordpress.com/2010/09/25/the-false-gospel-of-witness-lee-and-the-living-stream-ministries/comment-page-2/
Just by so much as what I see here, some comment.
'Objective justification is actual because there is righteousness within us,
Perhaps one very good way to find out what Witness Lee taught about righteousness in salvation is probably to consult his extensive Life Study of Romans messages.
In one place, somewhat more systematically, one could see what Witness Lee taught about Christ as our righteousness both in position and in disposition.
I would like to begin by showing you the Chapter outline of the messages in "The Life Study of Romans just so you can get an idea how Lee divided up sections of the book into 69 message topics.
Just consider at this point, Lee's outline of 69 devoted messages on this book of basic Christian doctrine. For this post that is all I ask.
A Foreword
The Gospel of God
The Source of Wickedness and the Way of Restriction
The Vanity of Religion and the Totality of Hopelessness
Justification in God's Way
The Example of Justification
The Subjective Experience of Justification (1)
The Subjective Experience of Justification (2)
The Result of Justification—the Full Enjoyment of God in Christ
The Gift in Christ Surpassing the Heritage in Adam
Identification with Christ
The Bondage of the Law in Our Flesh (1)
The Bondage of the Law in Our Flesh (2)
The Freedom of the Spirit in Our Spirit (1)
The Freedom of the Spirit in Our Spirit (2)
The Freedom of the Spirit in Our Spirit (3)
Sanctification in Life
Heirs of Glory (1)
Heirs of Glory (2)
Heirs of Glory (3)
Heirs of Glory (4)
God's Selection, Our Destiny (1)
God's Selection, Our Destiny (2)
God's Economy in His Selection
Transformation In Practicing the Body Life (1)
Transformation In Practicing the Body Life (2)
Transformation In Practicing the Body Life (3)
Transformation In Subjection, Love, and Warfare
Transformation in Receiving the Believers (1)
Transformation in Receiving the Believers (2)
The Consummation of the Gospel
A Closing Word
The Basic Concept of Romans
The Basic Points in Chapters Five through Eight
Being Freed from Sin, the Law, and the Flesh
Being Freed from Death (1)
Being Freed from Death (2)
Law in Romans Seven and Eight
Life and Death in Romans Five through Eight
Abiding in Christ by Minding the Spirit
Saved in Life from Sin and Worldliness
Saved in Life from Naturalness
Saved in Life from Individualism
Saved in Life from Divisiveness
Saved in Life from Self-Likeness (1)
Saved in Life from Self-Likeness (2)
Reigning in Life by Grace
The Meaning of Reigning in Life
Reigning in Life Over Death
Reigning in Life Over Satan
The Flesh and the Spirit
Serving in the Gospel of His Son
Designation
Sonship in Romans
Designation in Resurrection
Designation by the Spirit of Holiness
Designation by the Mingled Spirit
Righteousness—the Power of the Gospel
The Selection of Grace
The Practice of the Body Life
The Dispensation of the Triune God for the Fulfillment of His Purpose
The Dispensation of the Triune God according to His Righteousness, through His Holiness, and Unto His Glory
The Life of the Triune God Dispensed into the Tripartite Man
Not an Exchanged Life, but a Grafted Life
Transformation and Conformation by the Grafted Life (1)
Transformation and Conformation by the Grafted Life (2)
God Condemning Sin in the Flesh
The Processed God Being the Law of the Spirit of Life
God Condemning Sin in the Flesh That We May Be In the Spirit
Being in the Spirit to Experience the Work of the Spirit
@sonship saidHow about just addressing the passages I posted?
Ghost,
This may take more than one post.
Copying from a website you wrote -
https://contrast2.wordpress.com/2010/09/25/the-false-gospel-of-witness-lee-and-the-living-stream-ministries/comment-page-2/
Just by so much as what I see here, some comment.
'Objective justification is actual because there is righteousness within us, [/q ...[text shortened]... esh That We May Be In the Spirit
Being in the Spirit to Experience the Work of the Spirit
How about just addressing the passages I posted?
Don't mind addressing EACH paragraph. But how about you realizing in this of the Yahoo / Google critic finding naysayers is quite easy.
I could see by reading one sentence that I was in for listening to someone who doesn't too much about what they are talking about on Witness Lee's messages.
AFter going through more of those sentences, if I feel to retract the criticism of first glance, I will. If not I won't.
@sonship saidWhy would anyone read what some man said, when the writings of Jesus Christ is so simple, so clear and brief. The answer is that the writings of this man is for those who would rather believe a comforting lie that they are externally saved by professions of faith, than the truth as spoken by Christ.
Ghost,
This may take more than one post.
Copying from a website you wrote -
https://contrast2.wordpress.com/2010/09/25/the-false-gospel-of-witness-lee-and-the-living-stream-ministries/comment-page-2/
Just by so much as what I see here, some comment.
'Objective justification is actual because there is righteousness within us, [/q ...[text shortened]... esh That We May Be In the Spirit
Being in the Spirit to Experience the Work of the Spirit