The truth will make you free

Originally posted by epiphinehas
...This is what happens when a person tries to interpret scripture with his own ego. 😀

Perhaps you should stick to analyzing college football, no1. You obviously haven't the vaguest grasp of what the Bible teaches regarding Christ.

For instance, since Christ is God, if He ever denied being God, then He would be a liar. Yet you call Him e ...[text shortened]... rs in this verse, which only proves that you too are ignorant of Christ's significance.

You must be kidding.

Will one of you people actually give a real answer to the rather simple question of why Jesus i.e. God was afraid of physical death and asked the Father to allow him to not be crucified?

Your petty insults aside, not one of you have given a coherent response to that direct question. What sense does it make to say that God showed his "humility" by manifesting his utter dependence on Himself?

Originally posted by knightmeister
Then why was God [Jesus] afraid of physical death

---------no1-------

Because he was also a human being and he was also aware that the sin of the world was about to be placed on him. You might as well ask why was he born or why did he have feet etc.

Why do humans fear death? Because of the unknown. Yet Jesus KNEW for an absolute certainty what his fate would be supposedly. So he had no reason to fear death at all.

Why would it bother him "that the sin of the world was about to be placed on him"? He knew it would be removed.

The agony in the Garden is simply incompatible with the idea of the Trinity (better drop back to "it's a mystery" or SDRs).

Originally posted by no1marauder
Why do humans fear death? Because of the unknown. Yet Jesus KNEW for an absolute certainty what his fate would be supposedly. So he had no reason to fear death at all.

Why would it bother him "that the sin of the world was about to be placed on him"? He knew it would be removed.

The agony in the Garden is simply incompatible with the idea of the Trinity (better drop back to "it's a mystery" or SDRs).

Why would it bother him "that the sin of the world was about to be placed on him"? He knew it would be removed.

-----------marauder-----------

That's like saying why would it bother you that you are going to have your wisdom teeth taken out without anaesthetic , You know they will be removed and it won't last for ever. Have a cigar!

Originally posted by knightmeister
Why would it bother him "that the sin of the world was about to be placed on him"? He knew it would be removed.

-----------marauder-----------

That's like saying why would it bother you that you are going to have your wisdom teeth taken out without anaesthetic , You know they will be removed and it won't last for ever. Have a cigar!

It would be nice if you'd just say what you meant rather than relying on crappy analogies.

I am not God and the procedure that you outline would cause immense pain. Are you saying that Jesus i.e. God AFTER he experienced physical death experienced pain?

BTW, a Biblical citation for the idea that Jesus had the sins of the world placed on him would be nice.

Originally posted by no1marauder
It would be nice if you'd just say what you meant rather than relying on crappy analogies.

I am not God and the procedure that you outline would cause immense pain. Are you saying that Jesus i.e. God AFTER he experienced physical death experienced pain?

BTW, a Biblical citation for the idea that Jesus had the sins of the world placed on him would be nice.

Before we go any further are you able to say honestly hand on heart that you will give me a level playing field?

Originally posted by knightmeister
Before we go any further are you able to say honestly hand on heart that you will give me a level playing field?

Meaning what?

Originally posted by no1marauder
Meaning what?

Meaning are you open to finding something out about who God is , or have you already made your mind up beforehand. If you have pre-decided that the whole thing is bunkum and it could never make any sense then I have no chance of making any sense to you. If however the Holy Spirit is up to something and there is a tiny part of you that actually wants to know then game on.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Meaning are you open to finding something out about who God is , or have you already made your mind up beforehand. If you have pre-decided that the whole thing is bunkum and it could never make any sense then I have no chance of making any sense to you. If however the Holy Spirit is up to something and there is a tiny part of you that actually wants to know then game on.

Either you can give a logical and rational explanation (or at the very least a coherent and consistent one) for the questions I have asked or you cannot. If you cannot, they I am not going to accept an illogical, irrational, incoherent and/or inconsistent explanation on "faith". The purpose of this forum is to discuss spiritual issues, not to proselytize.

Originally posted by no1marauder
Either you can give a logical and rational explanation (or at the very least a coherent and consistent one) for the questions I have asked or you cannot. If you cannot, they I am not going to accept an illogical, irrational, incoherent and/or inconsistent explanation on "faith". The purpose of this forum is to discuss spiritual issues, not to proselytize.

However , you yourself are in your own unacknowledged way proselytising in reverse. Your posts are almost evangelical without the scripture. You are so cock sure about your position. Are you honestly interested in an in depth answer to your questions , or have you already decided that KM can only talk bunkum? Be honest.

Originally posted by knightmeister
However , you yourself are in your own unacknowledged way proselytising in reverse. Your posts are almost evangelical without the scripture. You are so cock sure about your position. Are you honestly interested in an in depth answer to your questions , or have you already decided that KM can only talk bunkum? Be honest.

Answer the questions or don't. I'm not interested in personalizing this discussion.

Originally posted by no1marauder
Answer the questions or don't. I'm not interested in personalizing this discussion.

Why would it bother him "that the sin of the world was about to be placed on him"? He knew it would be removed. --------no1--------

Ok , I will do what ToOne would never do and answer the question in good faith (or at least one of them)

This bothered him because he was to become separate from his Father and he was to have all the hatred , evil , darkness of humanity on him. He has spent a life living in holiness and now something opposite of this was about to be palced on him. It was not going to be a nice experience for him and he knew it.

Therefore I put it to you that if you were about to enter into an extremely unpleasant experience , the thought that it would not last forever would be a comfort of some kind but it would still bother you would it not? When we fall ill with a bug and are faced with the prospect of being sick , we know it won't last too long but the thought of throwing up still bothers us.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Why would it bother him "that the sin of the world was about to be placed on him"? He knew it would be removed. --------no1--------

Ok , I will do what ToOne would never do and answer the question in good faith (or at least one of them)

This bothered him because he was to become separate from his Father and he was to have all the hatred , evil , ...[text shortened]... being sick , we know it won't last too long but the thought of throwing up still bothers us.

Again this makes no sense. If God could simply remove all the sins of the world from Jesus, why bother with the middleman? Why couldn't God just remove all the sins of the world, PERIOD?

Further, according to your theology, this was what Jesus/God was sent to Earth for. Why would he attempt to avoid it? And please, please, please explain it in a way that doesn't compare Jesus to any other human; he's supposed to be God remember?

You also haven't provided a scriptural quote for the idea that all the sins of the world were being placed on Jesus; one from the Synoptic Gospels would be nice.

Originally posted by no1marauder
Again this makes no sense. If God could simply remove all the sins of the world from Jesus, why bother with the middleman? Why couldn't God just remove all the sins of the world, PERIOD?

Further, according to your theology, this was what Jesus/God was sent to Earth for. Why would he attempt to avoid it? And please, please, please explain it e sins of the world were being placed on Jesus; one from the Synoptic Gospels would be nice.

Why would he attempt to avoid it?

Attempt to avoid it!?! On the contrary, Jesus did everything in his power in order to be crucified. Reread the gospels and see for yourself; Jesus took every opportunity He had to incite the religious leaders. Christ knew the hour and the city of His crucifixion, and yet He arranged to ride into Jerusalem on the back of a donkey, precisely fulfilling the scriptures concerning the Messiah (the Messiah who, by the way, was clearly foretold would die for the sins of the world). Christ did NOT attempt to avoid His fate, in fact the reverse is true.

And please, please, please explain it in a way that doesn't compare Jesus to any other human; he's supposed to be God remember?

Yes, Christ is God. He is also a man. In order to fulfill all righteousness He had to suffer as a man and die as a man. The prayer in the garden of Gethsemane is the prayer of a man completely and utterly dependent on and obedient to God even unto death. Jesus, as a man, did not want to die, but was utterly surrendered to God's will and would have things no other way than as God willed.

All those who would follow Jesus must do the same.

You also haven't provided a scriptural quote for the idea that all the sins of the world were being placed on Jesus; one from the Synoptic Gospels would be nice.

Here is a passage from the OT which Jesus (of the Synoptic Gospels) no doubt grew up reciting, having full knowledge that it referred to Him:

"Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all" (Isaiah 53:4-6).

Originally posted by no1marauder
Again this makes no sense. If God could simply remove all the sins of the world from Jesus, why bother with the middleman? Why couldn't God just remove all the sins of the world, PERIOD?

Further, according to your theology, this was what Jesus/God was sent to Earth for. Why would he attempt to avoid it? And please, please, please explain it ...[text shortened]... e sins of the world were being placed on Jesus; one from the Synoptic Gospels would be nice.

Why would he attempt to avoid it? And please, please, please explain it in a way that doesn't compare Jesus to any other human; he's supposed to be God remember? ---no1-------

What this comes down to mostly is what your image of God is . If God to you is remote , all powerful and always in utter control of everything then Jesus will make no sense to you. My image of God includes a God who is human , infact more human than humanity. Jesus is a God who humbles himself in the form of fragile , emotional humanity. How else is God supposed to understand and judge us humans unless he has been there himself?

He asks that we walk thro' potential suffering and loss and fear for his will which is ***** hard. In Jesus he is not asking us to do anything he has not done himself. If it had been a stroll in the park for him the we might rightly ask of such a God "what do you know , you have never faced death , fear , impending sorrow , how do you dare judge us God , you don't know what it's like !"

In the end he did not attempt to avoid his mission he just asked if there was another way.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
I keep trying to give my explanation, but it seems to get dismissed out of hand.

My last post gave my explanation once again. For whatever reason, you see this as "evasive."

This IS my explanation of "Jesus's teachings on his death and his passover blood and his role in fulfilling prophecy and the new covenant and the Holy Spirit and him living in u ...[text shortened]... interested in "debate" or "winning". I'm interested in truth.

Looking back , this is where things went amiss in our discussion don't you think ? Page 22 and the posts around there when you said ... "Take communion. From what I can tell, Jesus basically gave disciples a ritual to "remember [him]". I haven't seen where he goes into an explanation that necessarily gives the act more significance than that. So I called it a "ritual". What more do you want me to say? "

The above response , when explored , does not add up in the context of Jewish culture and prophecy which is a point you could not contend.

You went on to say that St Paul should have said "I don't know" instead of extrapolating. This again doesn't add up because Jesus said that after his death his followers were to be "guided into all truth" after his death by the spirit. He clearly said the Holy Spirit was to finish off and complete the jigsaw puzzle of truth on himself. St Paul did this.

The idea that the communion was just a simple ritual with no significance doesn't wash because Jesus said as he poured the wine "this is my blood , shed for remission of sins" thus immediately casting a new light on it. To say such a thing on a passover meal to a Jewish audience had great significance because the wine was supposed to represent the passover lamb's blood. If one then looks at what it says about the messiah in prophecy it becomes even more significant.

The problem you had was that you feel that any theology that stresses christs saving blood for salvation and remission of sins means in YOUR mind that somehow we are entitled to sin. For you it's a blank cheque to sin your brains out anyway. There's your problem. Your pre-assumption prevents you from looking at this objectively.