The truth will make you free

Originally posted by knightmeister
Mohammed Atta had bigger stones than Jesus...........NO1

...and a much bigger ego too.....

LMAO!! A guy who thought he was God didn't have an ego???

EDIT: How's this for an ego:

6 Now when Jesus was in Bethany, in the house of Simon the leper,

7 there came unto him a woman having an alabaster cruse of exceeding precious ointment, and she poured it upon his head, as he sat at meat.

8 But when the disciples saw it, they had indignation, saying, To what purpose is this waste?

9 For this ointment might have been sold for much, and given to the poor.

10 But Jesus perceiving it said unto them, Why trouble ye the woman? for she hath wrought a good work upon me.

11 For ye have the poor always with you; but me ye have not always.

12 For in that she poured this ointment upon my body, she did it to prepare me for burial.

13 Verily I say unto you, Wheresoever this gospel shall be preached in the whole world, that also which this woman hath done shall be spoken of for a memorial of her.

Matthew 26: 6-13

She poured some anointment on his head; she didn't find the cure for cancer. And notice JC's "screw the poor, what about me?" attitude.

Originally posted by no1marauder
LMAO!! A guy who thought he was God didn't have an ego???

EDIT: How's this for an ego:

6 Now when Jesus was in Bethany, in the house of Simon the leper,

7 there came unto him a woman having an alabaster cruse of exceeding precious ointment, and she poured it upon his head, as he sat at meat.

8 But when the disciples saw it, they had indi ...[text shortened]... idn't find the cure for cancer. And notice JC's "screw the poor, what about me?" attitude.

Thinking you are God is only arrogant if you are not God, if you are then it's just a normal thought.

You can project your own ego onto Jesus if you want but it doesn't
wash with me.

Anyway . are you up for a serious debate or are you just doing the usual "let's try and wind up a christian " game?

Originally posted by knightmeister
Neither the words of Jesus not prophecy state that one is granted salvation before overcoming sin.

------thinkofone----------

.........But neither does he say anywhere that one must overcome sin in order to be loved and saved. He does not say explicitly " you must be perfected before you can be forgiven and loved and saved " He just exhorts us t plete , according to jesus , not me. This why I have been asking you about it.

I thought you said that you were looking for truth, not to "win" a debate.

You say "'you who work iniquity' was directed at the Pharisees." Where'd you get that?

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

This is all one line of thought. Like the Pharisees were in any danger of calling Him "Lord".

You say "He does not say explicitly ' you must be perfected before you can be forgiven and loved and saved'".

No He doesn't. I never claimed he did. But he does say:
"Depart from me, you who work iniquity."

"Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever..."

"A good tree cannot produce bad fruit..."

"I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all perish in the same way."

"If a man loves me, he will keep my word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our home with him."

A lot of the rest of your post also reads like someone trying to "win". Not like someone seeking truth.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Thinking you are God is only arrogant if you are not God, if you are then it's just a normal thought.

You can project your own ego onto Jesus if you want but it doesn't
wash with me.

Anyway . are you up for a serious debate or are you just doing the usual "let's try and wind up a christian " game?

You've been refusing to address my points or answer my questions which is your normal style of "debate". So, I again ask:

Then why was God [Jesus] afraid of physical death

By what standard do you judge the size of an ego? I'd say thinking that someone anointing your head with oil is something that should be talked about for the ages is pretty egotistical; what would you say?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
I thought you said that you were looking for truth, not to "win" a debate.

You say "'you who work iniquity' was directed at the Pharisees." Where'd you get that?

[b]Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, so reads like someone trying to "win". Not like someone seeking truth.

A lot of the rest of your post also reads like someone trying to "win". Not like someone seeking truth.

-------think of one--------

Of course I'm trying to win and so are you. You think you have the truth and so do I so by the very nature of the thing we have to be in competition. I think your truth is a distortion based on clever use of half truthes. You think my Truth is an invalid extrapolation. How can we not be in competition? At least be honest about it. I have no interest in "beating" you , my interest is in upholding the truth of Christ and hopefully helping you to find him for yourself.

The interesting thing is that Jesus told us exactly how the truth was to be found . He said that we would be guided by the Holy Spirit "into all truth" . He also implied that there was much more truth to find out after he was dead and that this would be the work of the Spirit. He clearly stated that there was much more to be revealed but that "it is more than you can bear right now" .

So Jesus teaches us to allow ourselves to be guided by the Holy Spirit on the matter of truth. Do you follow or believe this teaching?

If Jesus was right then where else do we see the Holy Spirit at work guiding men in truth and continuing to build the church Jesus spoke of than in acts, corinthians etc.?

"And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate to be with you always, the Spirit of truth, which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it. But you know it, because it remains with you, and will be in you. (Jn 14:16-17)

“I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.”

Originally posted by no1marauder
You've been refusing to address my points or answer my questions which is your normal style of "debate". So, I again ask:

Then why was God [Jesus] afraid of physical death

By what standard do you judge the size of an ego? I'd say thinking that someone anointing your head with oil is something that should be talked about for the ages is pretty egotistical; what would you say?

Then why was God [Jesus] afraid of physical death

---------no1-------

Because he was also a human being and he was also aware that the sin of the world was about to be placed on him. You might as well ask why was he born or why did he have feet etc.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
I thought you said that you were looking for truth, not to "win" a debate.

You say "'you who work iniquity' was directed at the Pharisees." Where'd you get that?

[b]Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, ...[text shortened]... so reads like someone trying to "win". Not like someone seeking truth.

You say "He does not say explicitly ' you must be perfected before you can be forgiven and loved and saved'".

No He doesn't. I never claimed he did.

-think of one----------

But you did say that we must overcome sin before salvation is granted. It logically follows that if one has overcome sin then one is perfected (eg sinless and perfect as jesus was ). Therefore , one must be perfect to be saved , which is what I said you claimed. Now you say you didn't claim that.


Jesus did not say that we must have overcome sin / be perfected in order to be saved. You extrapolate that he did.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
I thought you said that you were looking for truth, not to "win" a debate.

You say "'you who work iniquity' was directed at the Pharisees." Where'd you get that?

[b]Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, ...[text shortened]... so reads like someone trying to "win". Not like someone seeking truth.

You say "'you who work iniquity' was directed at the Pharisees." Where'd you get that?

-------think of one--------

I made a mistake . I am sinful and I rushed the post and got my facts wrong. I have not yet overcome.

However, I do think that it is directed at the kind of hypocrisy the Pharisees displayed. I don't think "working iniquity " is the same as someone who has yet to overcome their sin. "Working iniquity" suggests intent and deviousness.

The quote also shows a missunderstanding of those that think their works will put them in good standing with Jesus. The whole passage could be re-written to say " but Jesus , have I not overcome sin in your name , surely you must grant me salvation because of this" How do you think he might reply?

Originally posted by knightmeister
A lot of the rest of your post also reads like someone trying to "win". Not like someone seeking truth.

-------think of one--------

Of course I'm trying to win and so are you. You think you have the truth and so do I so by the very nature of the thing we have to be in competition. I think your truth is a distortion based on clever use of half tr ...[text shortened]... his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.”

The point is you really don't care what argument you give, just so long as you give one. Whether or not its based in truth is beside the point.

"That was said to the Pharisees. Yeah, that's it, that's the ticket."

Pretty much your entire posts reads like it was written by someone willing to throw out any obstacle, regardless of the truth behind it.

What's the point? Just to keep me busy?

Originally posted by knightmeister
You say "He does not say explicitly ' you must be perfected before you can be forgiven and loved and saved'".

No He doesn't. I never claimed he did.

-think of one----------

But you did say that we must overcome sin before salvation is granted. It logically follows that if one has overcome sin then one is perfected (eg sinless and perfect as j e must have overcome sin / be perfected in order to be saved. You extrapolate that he did.

You're the one who extrapolated 'perfected before you can be forgiven and loved'? Why would he say it? Because He knew 2000 years later KM was going to make such an extrapolation?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
The point is you really don't care what argument you give, just so long as you give one. Whether or not its based in truth is beside the point.

"That was said to the Pharisees. Yeah, that's it, that's the ticket."

Pretty much your entire posts reads like it was written by someone willing to throw out any obstacle, regardless of the truth behind it.

What's the point? Just to keep me busy?

So how does this work then? I consistently provide arguments that are backed up with evidence to which you do not counter with anything substantial or ignore without any direct answer and then one minor mistake and you seize upon it vigorously??? Bad form and not entirely cricket really , especially since it takes 20 posts to get you to concede any point or answer any question.

I chose in good faith to own my mistake and admit it. I made the mistake in the process of trying to give a direct answer to your questions. Your response is to jump upon it and use it to try and devalue my position?? Has No 1 marauder been giving you debating lessons?

Meanwhile the point I want you to address (and which is seemingly being deflected by you) is that Jesus clearly stated that all truth is to be found via the guidance of the Holy Spirit. He said this explicitly and without ambiguity. It was one of his final teachings. You say you seek truth . Jesus says that truth is known via the Holy Spirit. Do you follow this teaching?

This is my starting point for looking at all scripture. We are guided by the Spirit to find the whole truth of jesus. I feel entirely justified in this because Jesus told us that this was the way we should find truth. Do you have a different way from the one Jesus commanded?

Can I also say that I don't see myself in competition with you as such , I see myself as defending truth against half truth and distortions. It's not personal. If I thought you were right I would say so.

"And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate to be with you always, the Spirit of truth, which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it. But you know it, because it remains with you, and will be in you. (Jn 14:16-17)

“I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.”

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
You're the one who extrapolated 'perfected before you can be forgiven and loved'? Why would he say it? Because He knew 2000 years later KM was going to make such an extrapolation?

I simply am trying to work out why you think

a) we must overcome sin to be granted salvation
b) we do not have to be perfect to be granted salvation

To me a and b are mutually exclusive so I find your position illogical. If a man has overcome sin then he must never lose his temper , be always 100% patient , never have a stray lustful thought , be entirely compassionate 100% of the time , never think bad of anyone ever not even for a second , have a completely selfless relationship with God and folow his will 100% without fail , never get even the slightest bit tizzy or drunk , never be lazy or even think lazy thoughts , etc etc etc the list is endless....

As soon as a man who says he has overcome sin deviates from perfection he needs to confess and repent before God. But you say we must achieve this "overcoming" before God will love us or save us. This makes no sense whatsoever. I bet my mortgage that you have not overcome yourself.

The point is we are supposed to try to be perfect. The fact that it seems impossible doesn't stop us , but provision has been made for when we fall. How? I'm sure you can work it out.

Originally posted by no1marauder
LMAO!! A guy who thought he was God didn't have an ego???

EDIT: How's this for an ego:

6 Now when Jesus was in Bethany, in the house of Simon the leper,

7 there came unto him a woman having an alabaster cruse of exceeding precious ointment, and she poured it upon his head, as he sat at meat.

8 But when the disciples saw it, they had indi ...[text shortened]... idn't find the cure for cancer. And notice JC's "screw the poor, what about me?" attitude.

...This is what happens when a person tries to interpret scripture with his own ego. 😀

Perhaps you should stick to analyzing college football, no1. You obviously haven't the vaguest grasp of what the Bible teaches regarding Christ.

For instance, since Christ is God, if He ever denied being God, then He would be a liar. Yet you call Him egotistical. LMAO. Your exegesis is simply horrendous. If you weren't so willfully ignorant, perhaps you might be able to apply your mind more constructively to this issue.

As far as the garden of Gethsemane is concerned, you completely miss its significance. This is where Christ's suffering for mankind begins. Far from proving that Christ had an ego, the conflict in the garden proved just the opposite: "Nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will" (Matt 36:39). The whole scene at Gethsemane is the exact opposite of what occurred in the garden of Eden. Adam fell because of pride, but Christ overcame through humility. Adam's pride led him to live independently of God, whereas Christ's humility manifested in His utter dependence upon God.

As for Matthew 25:6-13, you obviously agree with Christ's detractors in this verse, which only proves that you too are ignorant of Christ's significance.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
For instance, since Christ is God, if He ever denied being God, then He would be a liar. Yet you call Him egotistical. LMAO. Your exegesis is simply horrendous. If you weren't so willfully ignorant, perhaps you might be able to apply your mind more constructively to this issue.

As we've discussed before -- and as made you leave RHP for over a month -- the Bible does not
positively assert that Jesus was God and reports a number of things which strongly suggest that
the writers believe that He was not God.

It is your Creedal exegesis which is disingenuous if you claim otherwise.

Nemesio

Originally posted by Nemesio
As we've discussed before -- and as made you leave RHP for over a month -- the Bible does not
positively assert that Jesus was God and reports a number of things which strongly suggest that
the writers believe that He was not God.

It is your Creedal exegesis which is disingenuous if you claim otherwise.

Nemesio

the Bible does not
positively assert that Jesus was God

----------nemesio----------

Jesus said "Before Abraham was...I AM! "

They then started to call him a blasphemer because they knew full well what he had implied. In Jewish tradition Jehovah himself was known as the "great I AM" . Jesus knew this full well and used the phrase knowingly. One thing we can say for certain is that Jesus believed he was God. We are all free to disagree.