The truth will make you free

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Yes. It in no way necessitates the idea that "'eternal life' is granted at some point before sin is actually overcome".

If it falls short of the words of Jesus, it's just "cheap grace".
"Depart from me, you who work iniquity."

"Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever..."

What would be so tragic if Jesus actually meant what He said above?

What would be so tragic if Jesus actually meant what He said above?

---------think of one--------

Nothing would be. I think he meant what he said , I just don't think he meant what YOU think he said. We cannot take scripture out of context or ignore other things he said. We need to look at the big picture (including the context of his Jewish background) and try and look at the other things he said also. Is this not logical?

If we are to understand jesus's message we have to read through everything he said and think about what he is saying (and there is lots of it) . There will be areas where there are apparent contradictions and we will need to try and resolve them. We need to look at what he said and who he was talking to as well as the words he uses and the meaning of the symbols. We need to take into account his charactor as well.

The problem is I could offer you many thoughts on these sayings but you would not be likely to give them a fair hearing until you stop obsessing about these 2-3 short sentences and taking them so robotically and literally out of context. This is why I am asking you to consider the other things that jesus said as well and think about how they seem to contradict what he says elsewhere. The idea is to get your grey matter working and considering other possibilities.

I accept the passages you quote are not easy and are problematic in many ways , but there is a resolution once you understand the other half of his sayings. The problem is that you simply will not accept or discuss the other half of his teachings. I suspect that this is because unconsciously you realise they will be problematic and you won't know how to resolve them with your favourite quotes...and I don't blame you ...it's tough stuff this. Let's face it , the disciples themselves barely understood what he was saying half the time and they lived with him.

I think we need to go right back to the beginning and think about something. You started this thread by asking
"You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free" (John 8:32).

From what will the truth make you free? ----ToO---

However , I think the question needs to be taken back one further step and turned around. I think we need to ask " What is this truth that Jesus speaks of?"

Originally posted by knightmeister
It means that the penalty for sin has been overcome. Sin is separation from God as well as an act or thought. Christ opens the door to communion with God without having to be perfected first. The most disasterous problem with sin is how it cuts man off from fellowship with God because God and sin don't mix. He is repulsed by it due to his Holiness. How ...[text shortened]... e we are only 99.9% perfect? I have to believe he is more faithful and compassionate than that.

If you truly repented, there wouldn't be such an occurrence 35 years later.

It's not about perfection either.

It doesn't make Him any less faithful or compassionate either.

People ARE lost sheep. They are lost in the desires of the flesh.

Try looking at it this way: A young child develops an attachment to a blanket and has very strong feelings toward it. After he's broken his attachment to the blanket, he understands that the attachment wasn't "real". So goes it with the attachment with desires of the flesh. After you've broken your attachment to the desires of the flesh , you will come to understand that the attachment wasn't "real".

Originally posted by knightmeister
What would be so tragic if Jesus actually meant what He said above?

---------think of one--------

Nothing would be. I think he meant what he said , I just don't think he meant what YOU think he said. We cannot take scripture out of context or ignore other things he said. We need to look at the big picture (including the context of his Jewish back and turned around. I think we need to ask " What is this truth that Jesus speaks of?"

Get real. These "2-3 short sentences" are several in number and much longer. I've only picked out couple of short sentences for the sake of brevity. They are not "robotically and literally taken out of context."


Ask yourself, why do you make such claims?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Get real. These "2-3 short sentences" are several in number and much longer. I've only picked out couple of short sentences for the sake of brevity. They are not "robotically and literally taken out of context."


Ask yourself, why do you make such claims?

Ask yourself, why do you make such claims?

----------think of one-----------

I have and the reason is I say this is because unless you are going to include ALL of Jesus's sayings into your understanding of his message then you are doing no better than a poor journalist would do picking out odd paragraphs from a report and not respecting the other pages. The paragraphs are not seen in context. I was a bit harsh saying it was robotic maybe because clearly you think deeply about what he says , I only ask that you also think deeply about many OTHER things he said (eg communion , Isaiah , new covenant) instead of dismissing them as a side issue. They were clearly not a side issue for him. He was prepared to die for them.

The question remains "what is the truth that Jesus talks about?" You think you have wrapped up this truth by embracing only half of his teachings and dismissing the rest as my "interpretation". Meanwhile I am trying to wrestle with the whole thing warts and all which is much , much harder. You seem to not want to engage with the WHOLE of his teachings NOR answer direct questions on them. Can you tell me why?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
If you truly repented, there wouldn't be such an occurrence 35 years later.

It's not about perfection either.

It doesn't make Him any less faithful or compassionate either.

People ARE lost sheep. They are lost in the desires of the flesh.

Try looking at it this way: A young child develops an attachment to a blanket and has very strong feeli ...[text shortened]... desires of the flesh , you will come to understand that the attachment wasn't "real".

After you've broken your attachment to the desires of the flesh , you will come to understand that the attachment wasn't "real".
-------THINK OF ONE-----------

Ok , so this sounds like you are talking with authority on this because you claim an understanding of what this is. I presume by breaking your attachment to the desires of the flesh you mean oveercoming sin? It sounds very much as if you have infact overcome sin (or at least the desires of the flesh) otherwise you would not be able to talk with such authority on it.

Do you not see that you do need to come clean now on whther you have overcome sin or not? If myself or Ephin said that we had no experience of the living Christ or the Holy Spirit would it not diminish our position? You might rightly ask how we know what we are talking about.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
If you truly repented, there wouldn't be such an occurrence 35 years later.

It's not about perfection either.

It doesn't make Him any less faithful or compassionate either.

People ARE lost sheep. They are lost in the desires of the flesh.

Try looking at it this way: A young child develops an attachment to a blanket and has very strong feeli ...[text shortened]... desires of the flesh , you will come to understand that the attachment wasn't "real".

It's not about perfection either.

-----------think of one-----------

Yes it is. The jewish concept of God was perfect righteousness and he was depicted as a Holy fire. Any imperfection is as rags to him . Jesus also said "be ye perfect , as your father is perfect" . How are we perfected? In Christ of course. There is no sliding scale of sin which is acceptable to God. You are either perfectly Holy or you are not. Christ was perfectly Holy and thus was able to pass on his holiness to us via the cross and his prefect sacrifice.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Ask yourself, why do you make such claims?

----------think of one-----------

I have and the reason is I say this is because unless you are going to include ALL of Jesus's sayings into your understanding of his message then you are doing no better than a poor journalist would do picking out odd paragraphs from a report and not respecting the other with the WHOLE of his teachings NOR answer direct questions on them. Can you tell me why?

"...everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever..."

I understand you'd rather not face the reality of the above statement.

Man is truly remarkable in his ability to rationalize the continuation of sin.

"Christianity" is a prime example.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
[b]"...everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever..."

I understand you'd rather not face the reality of the above statement.

Man is truly remarkable in his ability to rationalize the continuation of sin.

"Christianity" is a prime example.[/b]

Hypocritical flamebait... That's all your posts are, ThinkOfOne.

--------------

KM, ThinkOfone already admitted to having zero faith in the words of Christ. In light of this, it is obvious that his attempt to separate Christ's church from Christ Himself is driven by a hatred for those who believe in Jesus for their salvation. But remember Christ's words:

"If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you" (John 15:18-19).

Remember Christ's encouraging words to you, KM:

"I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee" (Heb 13:5).

Originally posted by epiphinehas
Hypocritical flamebait... That's all your posts are, ThinkOfOne.

--------------

KM, ThinkOfone already admitted to having zero faith in the words of Christ. In light of this, it is obvious that his attempt to separate Christ's church from Christ Himself is driven by a hatred for those who believe in Jesus for their salvation. But remember Christ encouraging words to you, KM:

"I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee" (Heb 13:5).

"ThinkOfone already admitted to having zero faith in the words of Christ." E

I never made any such admission. You, however, once again have failed to take context into account. You arrogantly assume you understand without taking the time to really understand. It's quite the habit for you. You have to give KM his props. He didn't have any problem understanding what I meant.

What you perceive as "obvious" only exists in your own mind.

You have eyes but cannot see.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
Hypocritical flamebait... That's all your posts are, ThinkOfOne.

--------------

KM, ThinkOfone already admitted to having zero faith in the words of Christ. In light of this, it is obvious that his attempt to separate Christ's church from Christ Himself is driven by a hatred for those who believe in Jesus for their salvation. But remember Christ ...[text shortened]... encouraging words to you, KM:

"I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee" (Heb 13:5).

Remember Christ's encouraging words to you, KM:

"I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee" (Heb 13:5).

Ephin-------------

Don't worry mate , I'm quite secure in what I believe and am not phased by thinkof One. I'm not about to drop salvation via grace for a minute , such a move would be preposterous and against jesus's teachings and an insult to his sacrifice for us. I'm just trying to see whether i can draw Too's attention to the what jesus taught about his death. He's a tough cookie though. He refuses to look.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
[b]"...everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever..."

I understand you'd rather not face the reality of the above statement.

Man is truly remarkable in his ability to rationalize the continuation of sin.

"Christianity" is a prime example.[/b]

I understand you'd rather not face the reality of the above statement.

Man is truly remarkable in his ability to rationalize the continuation of sin.

"Christianity" is a prime example.

----------thinkof ONe---------------

I see your problem. You see grace and salvation via grace as cheap in some way because it means that it can be exploited by those who wish to just carry on the same and not change. However , in doing so you throw the baby out with the bath water. There are two extremes possible and both are mistakes. Cheap grace with no change versus salavtion by works with no grace. BOTH are mistakes at the opposite poles. This is where you go wrong. You polarise everything and it's your blindspot.
This is why you think that because I don't subscribe to your view then I must somehow be at the other pole and subscribe to cheap grace , because for you there can be no resolution of the two . It's the way your mind works. You cannot , or seem not to be able to, hold two conflicting ideas in your mind at the same time. Like I said before you are like the child who says " but you told me to get stuck in , and now you are telling me to stay on your feet !"

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
[b]"ThinkOfone already admitted to having zero faith in the words of Christ." E

I never made any such admission. You, however, once again have failed to take context into account. You arrogantly assume you understand without taking the time to really understand. It's quite the habit for you. You have to give KM his props. He didn't have any problem ...[text shortened]... you perceive as "obvious" only exists in your own mind.

You have eyes but cannot see.[/b]

I never made any such admission. You, however, once again have failed to take context into account. You arrogantly assume you understand without taking the time to really understand. It's quite the habit for you. You have to give KM his props. He didn't have any problem understanding what I meant.

What you perceive as "obvious" only exists in your own mind.

You have eyes but cannot see.

-------------think of one-------------

ToO , how do you fancy we drop the accusation , counter accusation thing. I know you and Ephin have a spat going but you and me get on Ok. One thing that we have both got caught up in is a lack of respect for each other's position. I have always admitted there is a problem you have raised that needs to be addressed. What is frustrating is that you don't seem to think that what I have raised is also problematic.

I'm not interested in accusations really , I mean think about it , I know I've got better things to do than go round and round in circles like this.
Do you think that the purpose of my posts is some kind of rationalising defence mechanism designed to protect me from the tough teachings of jesus? You have no idea how many tough questions I ask myself and how I struggle with my thoughts and sins.
What I am looking for is some mutual respect in this argument. Does it not occur to you that I may have very good reasons for believing that Jesus is the Lamb of God who was slain for us all? Does it occur to you that I may have had real experiences of the Holy Spirit that confirm Jesus's teachings (re- communion and the purpose of his death) .

It's all too easy to dismiss an argument by labelling it a defence. I have little idea why you can't see jesus's clear teaching regarding his death and new covenant because you won't discuss it or come up with a rationale that explains what he said about his death.

All this leaves me wondering what it would take to give you a jolt or make you sit up and think "hey , there might be something I missed here". What is it that I would need to prove or show in order for you to look at the bigger picture? I have tried appealing to a logical interpretation of scripture based on Jesus's own words and jewish belief and prophecy , but to you this is just extrapolation. I have tried asking you to come up with your own ideas of what jesus was saying about his death. I have tried asking you direct questions , but they are dismissed as red herrings or traps.

Your defences are very strong. What is it you fear? These are only words on a screen . I can't hurt you or make a fool of you , no-one even knows who you are or me. In one real sense the only thing that can ever happen on these threads is that we fool ourselves because ultimately we are just arguing with projections of ourselves and imagined stubborness and arrogance. My view is that what we find ourselves saying about others also has great bearing on who we are.

I can be an arrogant %%%% sometimes but so can you in your own way. What's the way forward? Can we agree to try to understand everything jesus said or are we going to continue focussing on just one aspect of his teaching?

I know that in my life I have discovered something about God that I could share with you and I also welcome your thoughts on the NT also . I see your problem , but do you see mine. No proper debate can be one sided all the time. I cannot answer your questions without reference to the points I am trying to make. Jesus did say the things I quoted him as saying. Do you understand them? Do you have a rationale or explanation for why jesus would portray himself as the lamb of God or buy so heavily into Isaiah's prophecy? This simply has to be a problem for you or you have to have an interpretation of your own. I'm curious as to what it is because I can't logically see any other interpretation other than the one I have offered already.

Originally posted by knightmeister
I understand you'd rather not face the reality of the above statement.

Man is truly remarkable in his ability to rationalize the continuation of sin.

"Christianity" is a prime example.

----------thinkof ONe---------------

I see your problem. You see grace and salvation via grace as cheap in some way because it means that it can be exploit s " but you told me to get stuck in , and now you are telling me to stay on your feet !"

I believe that salvation from sin can be achieved by believing and following the teachings of Jesus.

My mind works logically. From what you keep posting, I have to believe that "logic" is most definitely not one of your strengths.

Jesus says that you need to repent and stop committing sin to be accepted. He says this several different ways in very strong terms.

Jesus never says that He is willing to accept anything less than the need to repent and stop committing sin.

Help with overcoming sin does not necessarily mean that one is entitled to continue sinning. Forgiveness of sins does not necessarily mean that one is entitled to continue sinning.

In fact Jesus says, time and again and in no uncertain terms, that one isn't entitled to continue sinning.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
I believe that salvation from sin can be achieved by believing and following the teachings of Jesus.

My mind works logically. From what you keep posting, I have to believe that "logic" is most definitely not one of your strengths.

Jesus says that you need to repent and stop committing sin to be accepted. He says this several different ways in very ...[text shortened]... says, time and again and in no uncertain terms, that one isn't entitled to continue sinning.

My mind works logically. ----think of one---------

So what is your logical interpretation for Jesus's teachings on his death and his passover blood and his role in fulfilling prophecy and the new covenant and the Holy Spirit and him living in us?

Is it too much to ask you to offer a logical explanation for these teachings of Jesus? If you continue to offer no interpretation but dismiss mine as extrapolation then what am I to think?

It's hard not to just simply assume that you don't want to go there for some reason. I don't mean this as an accusation but consider how it looks to others. Is there some specific reason why this whole area of his teachings is off limits for you ?

I'm confused. I thought you were a debater of good faith but sometimes I wonder. You may or may not be consciously evasive but do you have enough self knowledge to see yourself as others see you and why they see you as evasive?

I don't even know why you won't discuss this area of what Jesus taught because you offer neither an explanation or any logical alternative to my interpretations. In the end I will be forced by your silence on this to draw my own conclusions at which point I fear you might just say that I am making assumptions about you arrogantly without understanding your position.

I'm quite happy to meet you halfway and let you put me on the spot but you don't seem happy for me to do the same. This leads to very little mutual understanding and we both lose and it becomes boring. I would sooner agree that I would listen to your questions forthrightly and take them seriously and you would pay me the same respect. If you can't even do this then whatever you say about truth , love and justice and Jesus doesn't mean much and becomes hollow words.

If my interpretation of his teachings surrounding his death and it's purpose are incorrect then logically you must have the correct one which you therefore must be witholding from me. The only other explanation is that you have no such interpretation and have no idea what he was going on about. But if this is true then your understanding of His teachings must be logically incomplete.

My simple position is this. The mission and teachings of jesus cannot be properly understood without an understanding of the purpose of his death. Jesus clearly stated that his death was to achieve something and it was related to the passover , Isaiah's prophecy and the new covenant and sin. The Son of God was to die , bear our transgressions (and rise again) voluntarily for some reason. This was the will of his father.

If we don't understand why he said what he said about his death and what he died for then our understanding of him must be logically incomplete. This is why I am pressing you on this. It's just logical to do so. You do not have to answer my questions nor even read all my posts but if you don't you are just cheating yourself really. You will not have learnt anything nor really allowed others to learn about you.

Originally posted by knightmeister
My mind works logically. ----think of one---------

So what is your logical interpretation for Jesus's teachings on his death and his passover blood and his role in fulfilling prophecy and the new covenant and the Holy Spirit and him living in us?

Is it too much to ask you to offer a logical explanation for these teachings of Jesus? If you conti You will not have learnt anything nor really allowed others to learn about you.

I keep trying to give my explanation, but it seems to get dismissed out of hand.

My last post gave my explanation once again. For whatever reason, you see this as "evasive."

This IS my explanation of "Jesus's teachings on his death and his passover blood and his role in fulfilling prophecy and the new covenant and the Holy Spirit and him living in us" as it pertains to the topic of discussion:
"Help with overcoming sin does not necessarily mean that one is entitled to continue sinning. Forgiveness of sins does not necessarily mean that one is entitled to continue sinning."

"In fact Jesus says, time and again and in no uncertain terms, that one isn't entitled to continue sinning."

Maybe it would have helped if I prefaced it with, "Jesus said he came to help us overcome sin and to gain forgiveness for our sins". But I thought that that could be assumed from the response.

I guess I make up various scenarios that try to depict exactly what all the causes, effects and timings could possibly be, but realistically it doesn't seem like there's enough detail in the words of Jesus to know everything. So rather than make stuff up, I'd just as soon say "I don't know". I don't know why that bothers you.

Take communion. From what I can tell, Jesus basically gave disciples a ritual to "remember [him]". I haven't seen where he goes into an explanation that necessarily gives the act more significance than that. So I called it a "ritual". What more do you want me to say?

I suspect if Paul was willing to say, "I don't know", "Christianity" would have a more logical and realistic depiction of what Jesus shared. From what I can tell, he extrapolated a lot.

I'm sure I shared this with you before, but I not interested in "debate" or "winning". I'm interested in truth.