The truth will make you free

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
[b]"ThinkOfone already admitted to having zero faith in the words of Christ." E

I never made any such admission. You, however, once again have failed to take context into account. You arrogantly assume you understand without taking the time to really understand. It's quite the habit for you. You have to give KM his props. He didn't have any problem ...[text shortened]... you perceive as "obvious" only exists in your own mind.

You have eyes but cannot see.[/b]

"ThinkOfone already admitted to having zero faith in the words of Christ." E

I never made any such admission.

"What Jesus meant is in no way connected to what I do or don't do. I really hope that you can understand this. What Jesus meant is also in no way connected to what I believe or don't believe." ~ ThinkOfOne

Who do you think you're fooling?

Originally posted by knightmeister
Remember Christ's encouraging words to you, KM:

"I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee" (Heb 13:5).

Ephin-------------

Don't worry mate , I'm quite secure in what I believe and am not phased by thinkof One. I'm not about to drop salvation via grace for a minute , such a move would be preposterous and against jesus's teachings and an insul ...[text shortened]... the what jesus taught about his death. He's a tough cookie though. He refuses to look.

Don't worry mate , I'm quite secure in what I believe and am not phased by thinkof One. I'm not about to drop salvation via grace for a minute , such a move would be preposterous and against jesus's teachings and an insult to his sacrifice for us. I'm just trying to see whether i can draw Too's attention to the what jesus taught about his death. He's a tough cookie though. He refuses to look.

Good to hear. Just checking on ya...

You have a lot more patience with this guy than I do, I admit. IM me and let me know if you two have a neat break-through or something. I've been enough of a distraction here already.

Peace all.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
I keep trying to give my explanation, but it seems to get dismissed out of hand.

My last post gave my explanation once again. For whatever reason, you see this as "evasive."

This IS my explanation of "Jesus's teachings on his death and his passover blood and his role in fulfilling prophecy and the new covenant and the Holy Spirit and him living in u ...[text shortened]... interested in "debate" or "winning". I'm interested in truth.

Take communion. From what I can tell, Jesus basically gave disciples a ritual to "remember [him]". I haven't seen where he goes into an explanation that necessarily gives the act more significance than that. So I called it a "ritual". What more do you want me to say?

------------------think of one----------------


I don't want you to say anything. What I am asking you to do is re-examine the evidence and re-examine what he said and it's context. You say that we must think deeply about things ,well here's your chance.

Jesus plainly DOES endow the communion act with much more significance than you give him credit for. Firstly , he chooses specifically passover symbolism and identifies his blood (and body) with that of the passover lamb (“this is my blood shed for the remision of sins&rdquo😉. This clearly links in with his direct statement that his death is to fulfill a purpose prophecised in scripture by Isaiah and others and what was said about the coming Messiah. He doesn't chose any old ritual , it's a specific one done at a specifc time.

These ideas would have been highly significant for Jews and have direct implications about what his death is to achieve. Surely you understand something of Jewish culture and religion. If you don't then it's impossible to understand Jesus because he was a Jew himself.

The point here is that he doesn't HAVE TO explain the significance because the context is already there. He is explicitly and knowingly using a pre-existing context which has great significance. Do you think he really needed to sit down and explain the whole passover story to them? It would be like me explaining to you what 9/11 means , I assume you already know because our culture is steeped in it. It would be a waste of time and highly patronising,

What you don't understand is that by direct implication he is saying in both communion and elsewhere “ I am the Messiah who was prophecised in scripture , my blood is equivalent to the blood of the passover lamb which is shed for the remission of sin. My death is the new covenant talked of in prophecy. “

Jesus was a skillful and knowledgable user of imagery and analogy , it beggars belief to think that he would not know what he was alluding to. Do you really really think that he used a ritual like this by accident and that he didn't realise that people were going to go on and extrapolate it in the way that they have?

Do you really think he wasn't shrewd enough to figure that bit out? If you do you are making him out to be a misleading fool and a bungler. Everything we see of Jesus elsewhere tells us this is not who he was.

Think deeply about it ThinkofOne . Probe Jewish culture and history , read Isaiah , there's lots to look into if only you will look. It's disingenuous to say that there isn't.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
I keep trying to give my explanation, but it seems to get dismissed out of hand.

My last post gave my explanation once again. For whatever reason, you see this as "evasive."

This IS my explanation of "Jesus's teachings on his death and his passover blood and his role in fulfilling prophecy and the new covenant and the Holy Spirit and him living in u ...[text shortened]... interested in "debate" or "winning". I'm interested in truth.

From what I can tell, Jesus basically gave disciples a ritual to "remember [him]". I haven't seen where he goes into an explanation that necessarily gives the act more significance than that.

--thinkof ONe-------------

BTW- Did you miss the bit where he said this..........?

"Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:53-54

Sounds significant to me. Could the direct parallels with communion be accidental I wonder? Mmmmm....

Originally posted by knightmeister
Take communion. From what I can tell, Jesus basically gave disciples a ritual to "remember [him]". I haven't seen where he goes into an explanation that necessarily gives the act more significance than that. So I called it a "ritual". What more do you want me to say?

------------------think of one----------------


I don't want you to say anythin ...[text shortened]... look into if only you will look. It's disingenuous to say that there isn't.

Once you already have a pre-conceived belief, virtually any words can be tortured to make them support that belief. John is a weak source for Jesus' words as it was written probably about 100 AD and clearly is incorporating later theology absent from the Synoptic Gospels. Interestingly, the Last Supper in John is NOT the Passover meal (John 13:1-2 and John 19:31) while in the Synoptics it is. Jesus never stated that his death was for the remission of all sins for all time even in John; he constantly tells people not to sin which would be unnecessary verbiage according to your theology.

Originally posted by no1marauder
Once you already have a pre-conceived belief, virtually any words can be tortured to make them support that belief. John is a weak source for Jesus' words as it was written probably about 100 AD and clearly is incorporating later theology absent from the Synoptic Gospels. Interestingly, the Last Supper in John is NOT the Passover meal (John 13:1-2 and Jo ...[text shortened]... stantly tells people not to sin which would be unnecessary verbiage according to your theology.

Once you already have a pre-conceived belief, virtually any words can be tortured to make them support that belief.
----------marauder----------

Boy do I believe that!

Originally posted by no1marauder
Once you already have a pre-conceived belief, virtually any words can be tortured to make them support that belief. John is a weak source for Jesus' words as it was written probably about 100 AD and clearly is incorporating later theology absent from the Synoptic Gospels. Interestingly, the Last Supper in John is NOT the Passover meal (John 13:1-2 and Jo ...[text shortened]... stantly tells people not to sin which would be unnecessary verbiage according to your theology.

Jesus never stated that his death was for the remission of all sins for all time even in John;
------------marauder-----------

Pray tell me , what was the purpose of his death then? Why did he claim to be the coming messiah , the fulfillment of scripture (eg Isaiah)......I presume you do have a coherent and logical alternative?

Originally posted by knightmeister
Jesus never stated that his death was for the remission of all sins for all time even in John;
------------marauder-----------

Pray tell me , what was the purpose of his death then? Why did he claim to be the coming messiah , the fulfillment of scripture (eg Isaiah)......I presume you do have a coherent and logical alternative?

He didn't want to die; he asked the Father to "pass this cup from him", remember? Why such reluctance if he was God and knew of the wonderful plan you have spelled out?

He probably did think he was the Messiah, but he wasn't (ask a Jew; they're still waiting for the Messiah - who is not divine).

EDIT: Here's a site giving a brief outline of why Jesus isn't the Jewish Messiah and fails the prophecies: http://www.conncoll.edu/academics/departments/relstudies/290/judaism/jesus.html

Originally posted by no1marauder
He didn't want to die; he asked the Father to "pass this cup from him", remember? Why such reluctance if he was God and knew of the wonderful plan you have spelled out?

He probably did think he was the Messiah, but he wasn't (ask a Jew; they're still waiting for the Messiah - who is not divine).

EDIT: Here's a site giving a brief outline ...[text shortened]... ophecies: http://www.conncoll.edu/academics/departments/relstudies/290/judaism/jesus.html

He didn't want to die; he asked the Father to "pass this cup from him", remember? Why such reluctance if he was God and knew of the wonderful plan you have spelled out?

-----------------marauder-----------

Doh! He was also fully a human being as well. That's what made it a real sacrifice No1 , if he had just cruised to the cross with no fear or dread then you would be the first to point it out. Your argument makes complete sense if you think like a computer , as soon as you introduce the human element it just sounds silly.

You also mis quote him , he said "if it be possible....take this cup..." thus he was also saying by implication "if there is no other way then I will do your will".

Originally posted by no1marauder
He didn't want to die; he asked the Father to "pass this cup from him", remember? Why such reluctance if he was God and knew of the wonderful plan you have spelled out?

He probably did think he was the Messiah, but he wasn't (ask a Jew; they're still waiting for the Messiah - who is not divine).

EDIT: Here's a site giving a brief outline ophecies: http://www.conncoll.edu/academics/departments/relstudies/290/judaism/jesus.html

EDIT: Here's a site giving a brief outline of why Jesus isn't the Jewish Messiah and fails the prophecies: http://www.conncoll.edu/academics/departments/relstudies/290/judaism/jesus.html-----------marauder--------

At last ! an impartial objective website! LOL🙄

Originally posted by knightmeister
EDIT: Here's a site giving a brief outline of why Jesus isn't the Jewish Messiah and fails the prophecies: http://www.conncoll.edu/academics/departments/relstudies/290/judaism/jesus.html-----------marauder--------

At last ! an impartial objective website! LOL🙄

Your arrogance never ceases to amaze me. Did you have any answer to the points raised? Why isn't a Jewish site a reasonable place to get information regarding the Jewish Messiah?

EDIT: Actually it isn't a Jewish website anyway; it's from the Religious Studies department of Connecticut College. So it is an impartial website though you are free to laugh like a fool if you wish.

Originally posted by knightmeister
He didn't want to die; he asked the Father to "pass this cup from him", remember? Why such reluctance if he was God and knew of the wonderful plan you have spelled out?

-----------------marauder-----------

Doh! He was also fully a human being as well. That's what made it a real sacrifice No1 , if he had just cruised to the cross with no fear or s he was also saying by implication "if there is no other way then I will do your will".

This is hokum. How can he be "fully" a human being, be "fully" God, be afraid of death and yet his whole earthly existence be premised on that death? The whole idea is fraught with contradictions.

Why would God "think" like a human being? Why would he need an angel to "strengthen" him? Why would he bow to the Father's will - isn't his the same? The one sounding silly is you.

EDIT: And he tried to avoid the cross, didn't he?

Originally posted by no1marauder
This is hokum. How can he be "fully" a human being, be "fully" God, be afraid of death and yet his whole earthly existence be premised on that death? The whole idea is fraught with contradictions.

Why would God "think" like a human being? Why would he need an angel to "strengthen" him? Why would he bow to the Father's will - isn't his the s ...[text shortened]... ? The one sounding silly is you.

EDIT: And he tried to avoid the cross, didn't he?

how can he.......... be afraid of death and yet his whole earthly existence be premised on that death?

--------marauder---------

Hmmmm........ because he was courageous? You assume because he had the capacity to feel fear of death that he would run from it? Incidentally , it probably wasn't death he feared the most , it was the impending placement of the sin of the world upon him and his separation from his father.

Originally posted by knightmeister
how can he.......... be afraid of death and yet his whole earthly existence be premised on that death?

--------marauder---------

Hmmmm........ because he was courageous? You assume because he had the capacity to feel fear of death that he would run from it? Incidentally , it probably wasn't death he feared the most , it was the impending placement of the sin of the world upon him and his separation from his father.

He doesn't sound very courageous in Luke 22:42:

Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me

or in Mark 14:36:

Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; remove this cup from me:

Please cite something somewhere to support the ridiculous claim that he wasn't afraid of death but of "impending placement of the sin of the world upon him and his separation from his father". And BTW, why should he be afraid of that, since he knew eternally that it would happen (unless you're a non-Trinitarian).

Originally posted by no1marauder
This is hokum. How can he be "fully" a human being, be "fully" God, be afraid of death and yet his whole earthly existence be premised on that death? The whole idea is fraught with contradictions.

Why would God "think" like a human being? Why would he need an angel to "strengthen" him? Why would he bow to the Father's will - isn't his the s ...[text shortened]... ? The one sounding silly is you.

EDIT: And he tried to avoid the cross, didn't he?

Why would God "think" like a human being? Why would he need an angel to "strengthen" him?

----------marauder----------

If you don't understand the glory of a God who is strong enough to become vulnerable then it can't be explained to you. Jesus's strength and God's is that he is not afraid to be weak and fragile. Only the insecure and the brittle fear becoming vulnerable because they know they will shatter . Jesus is strong enough to embrace fear and vulnerability and still walk through them and embrace them into his strength. This is a different kind of strength from how the world understands it. It takes a human being of security and stability to have the courage to allow themselves to be weak. God has no need of what the world thinks is "strong".