13 Nov 07
Originally posted by knightmeisterI thought you were a Trinitarian. Are you or not?
The simple answer to your question is that as Jesus goes through his ministry he grows in his awareness of the mission before him. As he gets closer and closer to the day of his death he becomes more and more consumed by it . This is just a normal human response to something unpleasant - namely as the time gets very close we experience increasing anxie ...[text shortened]... uman. We forget that he played with children , wept over Lazarus and enjoyed a good breakfast.
13 Nov 07
Originally posted by Suzianne"Faith" in things that are contradictory is self-delusion. You are correct I am not interested in having such a "gift". Too bad for you that you think being deluded is a desirable goal.
And this, my unbelieving friend, is what is called "faith".
Something you obviously wouldn't be caught dead having.
Too bad for you.
13 Nov 07
Originally posted by no1marauderWho says you need to argue to make a point? As for the whole faith bit, I am going to start another thread on the matter seeing as how it seems off topic. Feel free to join in.
When you have no argument, try to personalize matters. Any time you want to respond to the points raised, feel free.
That goes for you too, whodey.
13 Nov 07
2 edits
Originally posted by no1marauderAs I have told you before, just because things appear contradictory in no way mean that they are. Like Christ's teaching that it is more blessed to give than to recieve or in order to lead one must first serve are examples. On the surface these teachings seems contradictory unless we dig further into these teachings and see the truth of them as I am sure you can. However, what of those teachings that are harder if not impossible to uncover?
"Faith" in things that are contradictory is self-delusion. You are correct I am not interested in having such a "gift". Too bad for you that you think being deluded is a desirable goal.
13 Nov 07
1 edit
Originally posted by knightmeisterI really don't know what to make of this post.
No I can't , it's an extrapolation based on "the son will set you free" and " I will be in you as you will be in me " amongst other things. It's also a revelation of the Holy Spirit to believers and based on the idea that if we are enslaved to sin we need to be set free from sin by something/someone. It's clear that jesus was prepared to lay down his l d give me the complete response to my post , you expected nothing less from me.
It almost seems as if you're willing to concede that the idea that "one can be 'saved from sin', yet continue sinning" is not supported by the words of Jesus or prophecy. Is this correct?
I feel like we've burned through dozens of posts trying to make some headway on this point.
It seemed like we were stuck in a cycle of repeating ourselves. I was trying different ways of breaking out of it.
Are you interested in "debating" or finding truth?
13 Nov 07
1 edit
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneI'm most definitely interested in finding truth and in order to find it one has to take each step one at a time on it's own merits without pre- judging the implications of where that might take you.
I really don't know what to make of this post.
It almost seems as if you're willing to concede that the idea that "one can be 'saved from sin', yet continue sinning" is not supported by the words of Jesus or prophecy. Is this correct?
I feel like we've burned through dozens of posts trying to make some headway on this point.
It seemed like we wer ...[text shortened]... rent ways of breaking out of it.
Are you interested in "debating" or finding truth?
This is why I am first trying to establish the truth of what Jesus taught regarding his death, what it was to achieve and why he made such a deal about it.
The issue of whether this contradicts or confirms what he says elsewhere is not relevant right now. Logic dictates that we must take each step separately. For example , a scientist does not investigate one aspect of something with the approach that pre-judges it's outcome and says "but A can't mean that because that contradicts B , therefore I will make B fit A" (your approach)
My approach is to look at A and see what A says and then also look at B and see what B says. If A and B end up contradicting each other then I cross that bridge when I come to it and ask myself why that might be or whether the contradiction is really there and there is something else I have missed.
Think about how the discovery that light was a wave and a particle at the same time. Apparent contradiction that leads to greater understanding.
I have not disputed that jesus said what he said (your quotes) and that it creates a problem , however , to equalise things I am also asking you to re-examine what he said about his death as well. Once we have done that we can then put the two together and take it from there. Your problem is that you want to take it too far before we have really looked at the whole picture.
You are like a scientist who refuses to look at the light making wave patterns because he is so attached to light being a particle . You just don't see how it can be both. The ability to hold two conflicting ideas togther is fundamentally important to many forms of deep understanding. The child will say "but light is a wave so it can't be a particle" and vice versa , only the adult can attempt a deeper understanding.
Jesus in my opinion teaches that we are to have a serious change of heart and to repent of sin. However, within his teachings also lies provision for human failings. God knows that we are made of clay and we will mess up from time to time and struggle to overcome our nature. But he also knows our hearts , he knows when we are honestly trying and when we are not. He knows how committed we are. He understands the man who has failings and falls into sin (eg Peter) . But Peter is not remembered for his bouts of arrogance or impatience , he is remembered for the love he has in his heart. Peter's heart was committed to Christ but he was still given to &%^$ ups. He continued in sin , but it was not willful , it was as a result of his old nature.
It's important to understand the principle of complimentary truths. There's two mistakes we can make with Jesus . We can say
1) "hey , it's Ok , Jesus has died for me so I will just carry on anyway sinning and not changing God will still love me. Sin doesn't matter to God , he's sorted it out for me and I don't need to try and overcome , infact I can do what I want"
OR
2) " God will not love me until I am perfect and changed. I must slog away by my own efforts and overcome. I can do this overnight with a click of my fingers and never sin again. Then and only then can I be accepted and forgiven and loved"
So which of these does God want? 1 or 2? The answer of course is neither. You swing between these poles like a monkey sometimes not stopping long enough to see the truth in between.
God has put these two truths together to try and trap us in between. What he's saying is "try your damndest to overcome sin , I mean you to be free of it , but also don't beat yourself up when you stumble , my love is there unconditonally for you. I love you and forgive you , but I also want you to press on to the goal. I see your sin and take it very seriously but I also see your heart and my love for you is very serious too"
Starting to get it yet? Has the Holy Spirit been guiding you into ALL truth as Jesus said He would?
14 Nov 07
Originally posted by knightmeisterI've never supported either 1 or 2, so I don't understand your point.
I'm most definitely interested in finding truth and in order to find it one has to take each step one at a time on it's own merits without pre- judging the implications of where that might take you.
This is why I am first trying to establish the truth of what Jesus taught regarding his death, what it was to achieve and why he made such a deal about ...[text shortened]... the Holy Spirit been guiding you into ALL truth as Jesus said He would?
Like I keep telling you. I don't see the words of Jesus as being contradictory. So I don't have a problem with anything that He said
14 Nov 07
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneLike I keep telling you. I don't see the words of Jesus as being contradictory. So I don't have a problem with anything that He said
I've never supported either 1 or 2, so I don't understand your point.
Like I keep telling you. I don't see the words of Jesus as being contradictory. So I don't have a problem with anything that He said
=========think of one-------------
So you don't have a problem with his teaching on the Holy Spirit , him living in us , being present with us in communion , rising again , being born again of the spirit, dying to create a new covenant on sin etc etc....?
Why didn't you just say so in the first place?
14 Nov 07
Originally posted by knightmeisterI've told you that I don't see Jesus as contradicting Himself. However I do see "Christianity" as contradicting Jesus. Remember?
Like I keep telling you. I don't see the words of Jesus as being contradictory. So I don't have a problem with anything that He said
=========think of one-------------
So you don't have a problem with his teaching on the Holy Spirit , him living in us , being present with us in communion , rising again , being born again of the spirit, dying to create a new covenant on sin etc etc....?
Why didn't you just say so in the first place?
That's what this discussion has been about.
I may not agree with all your interpretations, but like I said before: this only gets the bridge built half-way. The rest is an extrapolation. Remember? In my eyes, it's a flawed extrapolation.
I keep waiting for you to show me how "Christianity" doesn't contradict Jesus.
14 Nov 07
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneThe rest is an extrapolation. Remember? In my eyes, it's a flawed extrapolation.
I've told you that I don't see Jesus as contradicting Himself. However I do see "Christianity" as contradicting Jesus. Remember?
That's what this discussion has been about.
I may not agree with all your interpretations, but like I said before: this only gets the bridge built half-way. The rest is an extrapolation. Remember? In my eyes, it's a flawe ...[text shortened]... ion.
I keep waiting for you to show me how "Christianity" doesn't contradict Jesus.
------thinkofone------------
And yet you have yet to provide any coherent argument as to why the extrapolation is flawed nor have you any viable interpretation to offer. Just stating it is flawed is not enough. You have to say why. Are you able to justify or back up your statements?
You see it's not much of a debate or a search for truth if there is no exploration of the issues using logic or evidence. I naively assumed that this was what you wanted to do. I would sooner explore these issues in depth because I'm confident they will end up supporting my view (because I have already explored them myself) . You do not seem to have the same confidence in your view.
I have been trying to show you how Christianity and St Paul 's ideas about the living Christ , the Holy Spirit , saving blood , new covenant etc etc are logical extrapolations but alas you won't go there. You just keep re-stating your position with no argument or evidence. And yet you expect me to come up with ever more material without you reflecting or exploring the points I have already made.
I understand that you see jesus's teachings as non-contradictory and christianity (St Paul et al) as a flawed extrapolation. I sussed that one out 20 posts ago. Re-stating your position over and over again is not a coherent argument. You need to provide an alternative interpretation that makes much more logical sense than the one you think is flawed.
Jesus said what he said about his death and you see fit to say my interpretation as flawed but feel under no obligation to offer an alternative or pin your colours to the mast on the things he plainly taught about his death and it's significance.
If a man stands over my shoulder during a chess game and tuts whenever I go to make a move then after a while I will be inclined to ask him to play a better move than the one I am thinking of. If he has no better move then what is one to think? I might buy him a drink later and ask what his chess expereince is , if he says that's not relevant then I might be inclined to not take him seriously next time he tuts.
How about a different tack. Do you refuse to love or forgive others until they have apologised to you? Do you love only those who have overcome sin or do you wait until they have overcome before you love them?
14 Nov 07
1 edit
Originally posted by knightmeisterAre you saying that the following isn't a "coherent argument" against the idea that one is granted salvation before actually overcoming sin? :
The rest is an extrapolation. Remember? In my eyes, it's a flawed extrapolation.
------thinkofone------------
And yet you have yet to provide any coherent argument as to why the extrapolation is flawed nor have you any viable interpretation to offer. Just stating it is flawed is not enough. You have to say why. Are you able to justify or back up hose who have overcome sin or do you wait until they have overcome before you love them?
1) Jesus states several different ways that one must overcome sin to be accepted:
"Depart from me, you who work iniquity."
"Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever..."
"A good tree cannot produce bad fruit..."
"I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all perish in the same way."
"If a man loves me, he will keep my word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our home with him."
2) Neither the words of Jesus not prophecy state that one is granted salvation before overcoming sin.
For the life of me, I don't know how I can possibly have more justification to back up my position.
14 Nov 07
2 edits
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneNeither the words of Jesus not prophecy state that one is granted salvation before overcoming sin.
Are you saying that the following isn't a "coherent argument" against the idea that one is granted salvation before actually overcoming sin? :
1) Jesus states several different ways that one must overcome sin to be accepted:
[b]"Depart from me, you who work iniquity."
"Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The sla e, I don't know how I can possibly have more justification to back up my position.
------thinkofone----------
.........But neither does he say anywhere that one must overcome sin in order to be loved and saved. He does not say explicitly " you must be perfected before you can be forgiven and loved and saved " He just exhorts us to turn from sin. Peter for example had been baptised and turned to Jesus in repetance but was still messing up long after and there is no indication that Jesus wants him to depart from him , infact he builds his church on a man who is miles from perfect. How queer! I wonder if he saw through the sin to peter's heart?
He says we must repent , keep his word , follow his teachings but does this mean that we must be perfected before we can receive him? He says that "the son will set us free" , but according to you we cannot receive christ until we have overcome sin. I have no idea how one overcomes sin without christ's love. Can you see why I am fascinated with how you have managed to do it without knowing the full depth of Christ's love for you?
For example , I have repented of being angry and moody with my children and am committed to loving them and cherishing them. I still find that on occasions I lose my rag and then have to apologise to them and confess this to God. Do I lose my salvation? Have I not repented? Does God see my heart through my sinful nature? Of course he does.
From the moment I decided that was not going to be who I was as a parent that sin was sentenced to death within me. It can still do some damage from death row from time to time but it's days are numbered. I have repented but not yet overcome it in it's entirety. If I was in bondage to fear and condemnation , worried about my salvation and unloved and unforgiven by God I would be in much much worse shape and unable to overcome anything. I need God's love to strengthen me to battle with sin. Maybe you don't , but your way could never ever work for me because the cart and the horse are reversed. You may be strong enough to overcome sin in your own will power (although you won't say) , I am not , I need God's help. Even if I thought you were right it could never work for me.
I think you also take some of the quotes out of context. For example , "you who work iniquity" was directed at the Pharisees. Working iniquity in my mind strongly suggests deviousness and wickedness , this is distinct from plain old sin. It's all about motivation of heart. I try to love my children and help them with their homework but I end up messing up sometimes and lose my patience. I am sinning BUT I am not working iniquity in the way Jesus meant because my intentions were good and not devious. I think the slave to sin quote has a different meaning from the one you infer also. I think you do a lot of subtle extrapolating yourself.
So, finally , may I ask , did the Holy Spirit reveal and guide you into this truth of yours ?
Jesus did say that the Holy Spirit would come and guide us in all truth , did you get guided by the Holy Spirit or did you come up with this yourself? How did you arrive at this position?
Do you even believe that God is present in the world via the Holy Spirit as Jesus clearly taught? I can only assume you don't because if you did then you would have said by now.
"And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate to be with you always, the Spirit of truth, which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it. But you know it, because it remains with you, and will be in you. (Jn 14:16-17)
Jesus says, “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.” In other words, although Jesus had taught his disciples what seem to us to be many significant truths, there were nevertheless many more things still to be taught. Although he was departing, it would be the work of the Holy Spirit to communicate these teachings. Without the Spirit your truth must be incomplete , according to jesus , not me. This why I have been asking you about it.