@kellyjay saidAll this is true. No argument from me. I continue to maintain my thesis that Religion is the MAIN cause of hatred, overriding guns, race, politics, gender et al. Nothing that you or others have mentioned inclines me to believe otherwise.
People use whatever they can to justify their hate; they use whatever they can to justify their selves. It is no different from gun violence; it isn't the gun; it is the person using it. People at their core will justify hate, greed, any form of selfishness using whatever is convenient. If the heart of man wasn't inclined to these things, it wouldn't matter one way or anothe ...[text shortened]... s of religions; when we worry about the speck in someone else's eye, we can miss the log on our own.
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22 Dec 21
@Pianoman1
Are you saying that if you receive Christ you will loose all self control and become a hating person?
@sonship saidNo, of course I’m not saying that. The vast majority of religious people are decent and honourable people; I have many friends who are religious and, though I may disagree with their motive and their willingness to offload all their problems onto their God, we have enjoyable discussions and relationships.
@Pianoman1
Are you saying that if you receive Christ you will loose all self control and become a hating person?
No, what I am simply proposing is that where hatred exists in the world, it is mainly, and to a more devastating degree, caused by religious disagreement.
22 Dec 21
@pianoman1 saidIt's ironic how much your mindset is just like theirs.
Theoretically, yes. But the statement is so self-evidently true, even to hard-headed fundamentalist YEC’s, that nothing more needs to be said.
22 Dec 21
@pianoman1 saidCannot argue with an opinion, only facts.
All this is true. No argument from me. I continue to maintain my thesis that Religion is the MAIN cause of hatred, overriding guns, race, politics, gender et al. Nothing that you or others have mentioned inclines me to believe otherwise.
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22 Dec 21
@pianoman1 saidSo you really think the world would be better off if everyone were an atheist?
All this is true. No argument from me. I continue to maintain my thesis that Religion is the MAIN cause of hatred, overriding guns, race, politics, gender et al. Nothing that you or others have mentioned inclines me to believe otherwise.
And I think you unfairly lump all religions together in your assessment.
@pb1022 said1) Actually, yes I do!
So you really think the world would be better off if everyone were an atheist?
And I think you unfairly lump all religions together in your assessment.
2) you’re right: for the sake of argument I have bundled all religions together. But let’s put in some detail to Christianity and Islam:
Christianity:
a) the crusades when a papal army set out to recapture Bethlehem and Jerusalem from the Muslims, incidentally destroying many Jewish communities and sacking heretical Christian Byzantium along the way, and inflicted a massacre in the narrow streets of Jerusalem, where according to the hysterical and gleeful chroniclers of the time, the spilled blood reached up to the bridles of the horses.
b) the Spanish Inquisition of over 400 years when the Jews were put to the sword, burnt, tortured, terrorised, mainly by the Grand Inquisitor, Torquemada, if they did not convert to Christianity.
c) the Protestant/Catholic troubles in Ireland with the IRA ruthlessly murdering and maiming fellow Irishmen for the sin of being Protestant.
d)Bosnian Muslims facing persecution in the Christian Balkans.
e) missionaries murdering non-believers in Africa.
f) birth control illegality.
g) enforced FMG and circumcision
Islam:
a)jihad(Allah orders you to fight your enemies).
b)shia Afghans and Iraqis being put to the sword by Sunni jihadists.
c) the Taliban and Al-Qaeda.
d) apostasy (converting to another faith) being a death penalty, e) Ayatollah Khomeini ordering a fatwah (death penalty) on Salman Rushdie for the sin of writing a work of fiction
Should be enough to begin with….
23 Dec 21
@pianoman1 saidYour preconceived opinion on your OP being presented as being “self evidently” correct.
Clarify, please.
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23 Dec 21
@pianoman1 said1) How many millions of people in the 20th century were killed by atheists running communist governments? I’m pretty sure it’s around 100 million.
1) Actually, yes I do!
2) you’re right: for the sake of argument I have bundled all religions together. But let’s put in some detail to Christianity and Islam:
Christianity:
a) the crusades when a papal army set out to recapture Bethlehem and Jerusalem from the Muslims, incidentally destroying many Jewish communities and sacking heretical Christian Byzantium along t ...[text shortened]... lty) on Salman Rushdie for the sin of writing a work of fiction
Should be enough to begin with….
You know (I’m sure) how long ago the Crusades and Spanish Inquisition were, but I am curious what source said Christians were persecuting Bosnian Muslims and what source said missionaries were murdering non-believers in Africa.
Where is birth control illegal?
Who says Christians are behind FMG and circumcision? Circumcision is a Jewish thing.
24 Dec 21
1 edit
@pb1022 saidThe massacre at Srebrenica in Bosnia-Herzegina happened in 1995. 10,000 Muslim men and boys were murdered in an ethnic cleansing by Christian Serb forces. This is historical fact.
1) How many millions of people in the 20th century were killed by atheists running communist governments? I’m pretty sure it’s around 100 million.
You know (I’m sure) how long ago the Crusades and Spanish Inquisition were, but I am curious what source said Christians were persecuting Bosnian Muslims and what source said missionaries were murdering non-believers in Africa.
...[text shortened]... rol illegal?
Who says Christians are behind FMG and circumcision? Circumcision is a Jewish thing.
Stalin, Russia 1917, is interesting. You have to remember that the Czars of the time were considered as gods; as well as being the head of the Russian Orthodox Church they were worshipped as supernatural beings themselves. Josef Stalin was a seminarian from Georgia at the time, although he had been thrown at for possessing heretical literature. In order to inculcate in the people a desire to be rid of the Royal family he had to disseminate the idea that religion, to be precise the Czars, was holding society back, and so he practised a form of militant atheism. But I believe, I have no evidence to support this, that he retained the belief he had as a young seminarian all his life.
Adolph Hitler was a Catholic with a view, expressed in Mein Kampf of “positive Christianity”. It is a sickening fact that Pope Prius XII, the Pope at the time, was in league with Hitler’s anti Semitic views, something which has left a permanent stain on the Church’s credibility.
The Catholic Church has throughout its history declared birth control illegal, only recently relenting. Mother Theresa was responsible for thousands of unwanted babies for refusing to hand out condoms.
@pianoman1 saidSo men set themselves up as gods, denied gods, or did it in the name of gods, or did it for greed, lusts, fear, ethnic cleansing, and we can add any number of things to the lists. The heart of all of this is what is inside of a man. Do we care in what name or cause someone slattered another? Do we care what means they choose to kill someone else? If we were not so corruptible, would any of these things occur? An honest man finds a wallet he returns it intact to the owner, a greedy person not so much, a kind person who takes care of those around them in need, a hateful person not so much. If you are looking to produce a pareto chart of the atrocities of man to see what is the most used, that doesn't make the most used the evilest thing in our arsenal; we are the source of that, not the devices we use to do them.
The massacre at Srebrenica in Bosnia-Herzegina happened in 1995. 10,000 Muslim men and boys were murdered in an ethnic cleansing by Christian Serb forces. This is historical fact.
Stalin, Russia 1917, is interesting. You have to remember that the Czars of the time were considered as gods; as well as being the head of the Russian Orthodox Church they were worshipped as supe ...[text shortened]... g. Mother Theresa was responsible for thousands of unwanted babies for refusing to hand out condoms.
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@pianoman1 saidLooks like my estimate of 100 million dead in the 20th century due to atheists running communist governments may have been way too low
The massacre at Srebrenica in Bosnia-Herzegina happened in 1995. 10,000 Muslim men and boys were murdered in an ethnic cleansing by Christian Serb forces. This is historical fact.
Stalin, Russia 1917, is interesting. You have to remember that the Czars of the time were considered as gods; as well as being the head of the Russian Orthodox Church they were worshipped as supe ...[text shortened]... g. Mother Theresa was responsible for thousands of unwanted babies for refusing to hand out condoms.
“Atheism’s Murder Rate: More than 250 Million Dead in the Past Century”
https://www.scholarscorner.com/atheisms-body-count-ideology-and-human-suffering/
I guess when you think people are animals and you believe you have no accountability, murder is an acceptable response to dissent.
25 Dec 21
@kellyjay saidYes, a thoughtful response. You’re right, of course. Perhaps I phrased my thread clumsily. Some men will have evil and hate inside them. Religion offers these people a channel to express and vent it to a degree greater than other starting points.
So men set themselves up as gods, denied gods, or did it in the name of gods, or did it for greed, lusts, fear, ethnic cleansing, and we can add any number of things to the lists. The heart of all of this is what is inside of a man. Do we care in what name or cause someone slattered another? Do we care what means they choose to kill someone else? If we were not so corruptibl ...[text shortened]... used the evilest thing in our arsenal; we are the source of that, not the devices we use to do them.
25 Dec 21
@pb1022 said“ atheists running communist governments”
Looks like my estimate of 100 million dead in the 20th century due to atheists running communist governments may have been way too low
“Atheism’s Murder Rate: More than 250 Million Dead in the Past Century”
https://www.scholarscorner.com/atheisms-body-count-ideology-and-human-suffering/
I guess when you think people are animals and you believe you have no accountability, murder is an acceptable response to dissent.
Let’s look at North Korea. A so-called communist atheist society. Communist, yes. Atheist? Well, let’s take a closer look. Kim Jong-un is worshipped in N. Korea as a god. He is divine. Like the Russian Czars he is meta human. Is that not religion by any other name?